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[2820.38 --> 2824.62] end up getting mismatched with the actual audience for that and the rest of the community around that? |
[2824.62 --> 2828.78] Um, and, and how do you, how do you make sure that you're kind of staying on track and staying really |
[2828.78 --> 2833.82] on mission, uh, for your organization? Yeah. I think, um, the way that my coworker, |
[2833.82 --> 2839.98] Carissa likes to put it is, um, we can write code really efficiently because we're all professionals. |
[2840.54 --> 2844.54] So we could go a thousand miles, but if we go a thousand miles in the wrong direction, |
[2844.54 --> 2849.66] like we're actually hurting ourselves. So having the direction is the hardest part and scoping |
[2849.66 --> 2855.66] everything. And so, uh, what we try to do is always have deadlines for ourselves. So we sign |
[2855.66 --> 2860.38] up for talks, uh, because if you have to give a talk, then like we encourage everybody on the team |
[2860.38 --> 2865.66] to always have like a personal deadline, like they commit to doing a presentation on something and then |
[2865.66 --> 2871.26] they end up getting it finished because they have a presentation. If you never, are you saying that |
[2871.26 --> 2875.18] your organization actually uses conference driven development as a development strategy? |
[2875.18 --> 2885.02] Like this is key. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I definitely endorse it because like for me, |
[2885.02 --> 2888.94] for example, if you go to the DAP project, GitHub, you won't see that many projects. |
[2888.94 --> 2894.22] It's mostly administrative repositories to find all of our projects. You go to all of our individual |
[2894.22 --> 2899.74] team members pages. So I think it's really important that people have the credit for the work that they're |
[2899.74 --> 2904.14] doing because they're not going to work for the DAP project forever. They're going to go and have |
[2904.14 --> 2908.78] their own career that goes into other places afterwards, or there might, I hope that they |
[2908.78 --> 2915.02] start their own grants. Like my, my ultimate long-term goal is that we're not a giant nonprofit of like |
[2915.02 --> 2920.62] 25 people, but instead we're five projects of five people that all are in the same ecosystem as each |
[2920.62 --> 2924.46] other supporting each other, but everybody can have their own, like find their own niche and their |
[2924.46 --> 2929.50] mission and have their own funding and, and whatever. So I think it's really important that people, |
[2930.14 --> 2935.50] all the work that people are doing that I'm paying them for goes onto their own, um, GitHub account. |
[2936.14 --> 2943.10] And, um, similarly, I think it's important that they personally are speaking on behalf of the community. |
[2943.10 --> 2948.94] Like we don't have like a developer evangelists that does that full time. Um, we have every, like, |
[2948.94 --> 2955.66] I just encourage everybody to kind of be the evangelism for themselves. Um, and if, and I, |
[2955.66 --> 2960.22] I also don't want people to get DAT talks. I want them to talk about whatever they're passionate about. |
[2960.78 --> 2964.70] So it's not, you know, that's kind of like how we're different from a, like a startup or whatever. |
[2965.50 --> 2971.10] Um, like basically the only contract I have with the people on the team is like, I give you money and |
[2971.10 --> 2977.10] then you just try to come up with creative ways to contribute to the ecosystem and solve the problem in |
[2977.10 --> 2981.58] some way. But like, at the same time, we can't just be like willy nilly, like giving people infinite |
[2981.58 --> 2986.46] amounts of time to work on stuff. So another super important thing is getting physically together. |
[2986.46 --> 2991.42] This is just like remote team stuff, but, um, we are a remote team. You don't have to be a remote |
[2991.42 --> 2997.42] team, but I think it's valuable for us because if we were physically or like geographically constrained, |
[2997.42 --> 3004.46] it would make it harder to attract the talent that we do. So by being remote, we can be more flexible. |
[3004.46 --> 3010.46] Um, and I also have a lot of experience doing remote stuff. Um, like I worked at coffee shops for four |
[3010.46 --> 3018.54] years, I think the last four years. Um, and so yeah, coffee shop team. Um, and so it's like, |
[3018.54 --> 3022.46] you know, you just, there's too many things. I mean, you could spend hours talking about it, but, |
[3023.18 --> 3027.26] um, I was just going to say that the, a really important thing for us is we have a travel budget |
[3027.26 --> 3033.26] in our grants that allows us to, um, convene and we end up convening fairly regularly. Like I would say |
[3033.26 --> 3038.46] every two months or three months, we see each other face to face, like not the entire team, |
[3038.46 --> 3043.66] but at least one person seat like travels to the other person's city, like every other month. |
[3043.66 --> 3050.30] Like I was just in, um, Copenhagen visiting Matias two weeks ago. And then, uh, he just decided to come |
[3050.30 --> 3056.30] out here, um, in two weeks because he was like, we're, we're just doing all these new projects |
[3056.30 --> 3060.06] because of this new grant that we just got. And he's like, oh, I don't want to be on a different |
[3060.06 --> 3064.22] time zone. I'm like really excited to work on this stuff. So he's going to come out and it's also, |
[3064.22 --> 3068.70] you know, summer in the U S so it's a good time to visit and everything. So, um, we've done a lot |
[3068.70 --> 3073.42] of like renting cool cabins in the woods in Oregon and going to hack for like three days and then |
[3073.42 --> 3078.30] people fly back home. And so we spend that three day period getting really excited and doing project |
[3078.30 --> 3082.06] planning and coordination and coming up with what our like prototype that we're trying to build is, |
[3082.06 --> 3086.06] or like what the alpha release of something looks like. And then we can all go back to our, |
[3086.06 --> 3090.38] our day-to-day lives and be independent and work on it. And then kind of like, |
[3090.38 --> 3095.02] so that's like the, that's kind of like the, so the two phase thing is we have like an intensive |
[3095.02 --> 3099.34] project planning phase. And then we, once we get scope out a roadmap for a couple months |
[3099.34 --> 3105.42] for every individual, then we can go back and kind of work in parallel. Um, we still like ping each other |
[3105.42 --> 3111.66] with questions every day, but it's, we don't have like a daily centralized, like planning process. |
[3111.66 --> 3115.18] We have like a, we try to decentralize and asynchronous as much as possible. |
[3115.18 --> 3118.54] I mean, budget wise, that's probably still cheaper than an office, right? |
[3118.54 --> 3123.10] Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, now that we're more people, I'm not sure how the economics are going |
[3123.10 --> 3127.58] to work out for travel budget, but, um, I have noticed that grant funders are generally open to, |
[3127.58 --> 3133.10] um, convenience. Like they love it. Yeah. They love convenience. Like you can pitch, |
[3133.10 --> 3136.46] once you have a relationship with a funder, you can be like, Hey, I wanted to get like 20 people |
[3137.18 --> 3141.98] that are like, you know, the, the leaders in this open source community together with like |
[3141.98 --> 3147.18] a bunch of scientists. Can you pay for us to like, I'll fly out to some place. And they're like, okay. |
[3147.18 --> 3149.26] That's always called a convening. |
[3149.26 --> 3154.14] Yeah. Yeah. They're like $50,000 to fly a bunch of people for like a weekend conference. Like, okay, |
[3154.14 --> 3159.74] that's $50,000 to them is like totally, um, as long as you're like pitch them on a thing that's like, |
[3159.74 --> 3166.62] oh, we'll definitely write a report for you afterwards. Um, they actually like that. So |
[3166.62 --> 3172.62] we're going to try to do that soon. Cause we're, um, I'm starting to, um, build up a consortium or |
[3172.62 --> 3177.74] alliance. We don't know the word yet with a bunch of other project based, um, open source teams, |
[3177.74 --> 3185.50] or I'm sorry, grant based open source teams. Um, and we're trying to figure out, like, |
[3185.50 --> 3189.58] we're trying to like write a manifesto for what it means to be a project like this. |
[3189.58 --> 3192.86] Cause we don't really fit. Like our team is really weird. Like we don't fit in a |
[3193.34 --> 3200.14] traditional category. Like we're not, um, in academia, but we work with academics and we're, |
[3200.14 --> 3206.06] um, we're a nonprofit except we write like pretty much all software. Um, which I don't know a lot of |
[3206.06 --> 3211.34] nonprofits that are like just software focused. And we're also not a startup, although people think |
[3211.34 --> 3215.98] we're a startup because we have a logo and a name. So they just assume like we're a startup. |
[3216.78 --> 3220.94] And, uh, so we just, we're just kind of weird. We're an open source project, but we have a budget |
[3220.94 --> 3225.90] and people are paid to work on it. So that's also weird. Um, so we're trying to figure out like what, |
[3226.54 --> 3231.98] like, what is the name that we can call ourselves that people will understand. And like, also all the |
[3231.98 --> 3236.06] stuff that I'm like sharing here, like, it'd be cool if we had it written up in an accessible way |
[3236.06 --> 3238.30] so that people could kind of start down that path. |
[3238.30 --> 3243.50] So zooming out a little bit, uh, I don't know how much you've paid attention to the past year or so, |
[3243.50 --> 3249.18] but there've been a bunch of grant programs, whatever grant means coming from different |
[3249.18 --> 3257.42] organizations like Mozilla and Linux, um, and Stripe. And I'm curious to hear your take on sort |
[3257.42 --> 3262.46] of like, what do you think, what role do you think grants could or should be playing in funding open |
[3262.46 --> 3267.66] source work? Is it cause in your case, this, it was for funding a new project, right? And in other |
[3267.66 --> 3272.86] cases it's for funding an existing project. And where's the sweet spot in terms of like, |
[3272.86 --> 3274.86] where should that money be deployed most effectively? |
[3274.86 --> 3279.58] I'm yeah, I think it's interesting that like, for example, Stripe has an open source |
[3279.58 --> 3284.06] program. Um, I mean, I don't know what percentage of their, uh, |
[3285.02 --> 3290.70] their budget goes to that. I, the reason that I like private philanthropies is that the people |
[3290.70 --> 3295.34] working, for example, at the Gates Foundation or whatever, like we're not a Gates Foundation grantee, |
[3295.34 --> 3299.66] but the people working there, obviously Bill Gates is a computer programmer. So |
[3300.54 --> 3304.54] like most people that are working there are focused on like the humanitarian side or like |
[3304.54 --> 3308.54] the social impact side and they're not technologists. And so you have to be able to |
[3308.54 --> 3313.34] learn to speak their language. But then once you do, you're kind of like locking in your agreement |
[3313.34 --> 3320.06] with them to addressing their like societal problem using technology. And so I think it's really |
[3320.06 --> 3325.18] important to have that yin and that yang of you're going to use technology as like one tool, but the |
[3325.18 --> 3331.66] end goal isn't to build the technology. The end goal is to affect change in some area. And I'm curious, |
[3331.66 --> 3337.34] like with Stripe, like what they're, I don't know if like, I would consider making payment |
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