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[3337.34 --> 3343.34] infrastructure more robust to be like affecting positive change in society. So I, I think like if |
[3343.34 --> 3347.26] they're just, like I said earlier, there's like a bunch of different ways to define the word grant. |
[3347.26 --> 3356.86] For me, what that has meant is forcing myself to learn how to pitch my projects in a way that |
[3356.86 --> 3363.26] actually like affects some community or like, you know, has some sort of social impact. That's where |
[3363.26 --> 3367.34] kind of like the nonprofit side comes in. Like people assume like if you're a nonprofit, you have |
[3367.34 --> 3371.58] some sort of social mission. And I think that's super important for open source people to be able to |
[3371.58 --> 3376.62] link their project to a social mission. So I think that that's really important. And I'm not sure |
[3377.34 --> 3383.58] if you have like for-profit companies who are giving the grants out, like it could just be, |
[3383.58 --> 3389.74] I mean, I think grants can be a really simple way to, to just like funds infrastructure because |
[3389.74 --> 3394.62] otherwise you would have to go work at that company and be an employee to get paid. So grants are a way |
[3394.62 --> 3398.94] to just have people like they can basically say, Hey, there's this person that doesn't work for us, |
[3398.94 --> 3403.90] but it's super qualified. Let's just give them a grant. But I'm not sure. Like, I don't think |
[3403.90 --> 3409.02] that's the long-term. I don't know what the long-term goal of that is because by forcing me, |
[3409.02 --> 3413.66] for example, this grant process has forced me to learn how to become not just a programmer, |
[3413.66 --> 3419.58] but also like a project leader and a grant writer and like learning how to run an organization. |
[3420.46 --> 3425.98] If I got like a Stripe grant to build, to like work on open SSL or whatever, I don't think that I |
[3425.98 --> 3430.54] would learn like any of those other things. I would just like get paid to work on open SSL for |
[3430.54 --> 3436.22] a bit, make open SSL better, but then like run out of money and then have to go get a job anyway. |
[3436.22 --> 3440.62] It sounds like what it really separates into it. I think nonprofit and for-profit is probably like |
[3440.62 --> 3446.46] the wrong way to look at this. It's more that is the impact of this grant to improve a technology |
[3446.46 --> 3451.34] or is it to improve like a social outcome? Right. Because you have, you have plenty of nonprofits and |
[3451.34 --> 3456.78] for-profits that depend on, and then we'll, you know, subsidize or put money into a technology |
[3456.78 --> 3463.34] because they're dependent on it in some way. Right. But you know, when you look at the social |
[3463.34 --> 3468.46] good of something, the only way to fund it is going to be with a grant. Right. I mean, if you're, |
[3468.46 --> 3472.14] if your primary outcome, that's like the only way to get any money for it. |
[3472.14 --> 3477.58] Yeah. I mean, economically there is the term, the public good, which is like things that by definition, |
[3477.58 --> 3482.62] like the light, like lighthouses are the typical example where nobody wants to build the lighthouse |
[3482.62 --> 3488.54] because there's no like ROI on a lighthouse. It's a public infrastructure, but like, if you don't have |
[3488.54 --> 3494.62] it, then like everyone dies. So you need somebody to build it and how are you going to build a lighthouse? |
[3494.62 --> 3500.06] So if you're building a lighthouse, like it's grants are good. Yeah. That's, um, that's partially why |
[3500.06 --> 3505.10] I've been interested in exploring, like, or thinking of open source software as public software, um, |
[3505.10 --> 3511.18] to make that link between like a public good. And, and when I describe open source software to people |
[3511.18 --> 3515.66] who don't use it, it's sort of like, this is a thing that exists in the public domain that you can use |
[3515.66 --> 3521.50] for whatever purpose you want to use. But it's sort of a, a new concept for people to think about |
[3521.50 --> 3525.98] software that way. If they're not familiar with software, I mean, anyone outside of open source |
[3525.98 --> 3530.22] thinks of software is like Silicon Valley and tech and whatever. And it's like, well, there's also a lot that is |
[3530.22 --> 3535.98] just like being created in the commons and being used. And how do you end up supporting that stuff? |
[3535.98 --> 3542.30] Mm-hmm. Well, and I mean, I think that it's, it's important to, to draw this distinction though, |
[3542.30 --> 3547.18] between like what you're doing, like, like the no JS foundation is a nonprofit, but at the end of the |
[3547.18 --> 3552.62] day, it's there to make sure that that technology succeeds and there is social good outcomes built on |
[3552.62 --> 3556.46] top of the technology. But the mission of the foundation is to make sure that the technology is |
[3556.46 --> 3561.74] there. It's not necessarily to focus on those social outcomes. I mean, it enables that, but that |
[3561.74 --> 3566.14] is not, you know, part of the social mission there. And a lot of the modules that you build, |
[3566.14 --> 3570.46] I'm sure could be used by a company to do some awesome, like big data research or whatever. |
[3571.02 --> 3575.26] But your mission and what you're focused on is actually building things for a particular social |
[3575.26 --> 3579.82] outcome. Right. Yeah, definitely. Like we're, I would say, yeah, the Linux foundation, for example, |
[3579.82 --> 3584.62] is a lot lower level in the stack because, and that's like one of the trade-offs you have to make is like, |
[3584.62 --> 3591.02] how detached from the issues do you want to be? I think that the more attached to social issues |
[3591.02 --> 3596.22] you are, the easier you'll find it to get grants because that's all grant people care about is you |
[3596.22 --> 3601.10] being able to contextualize your technology in their existing mission. So that's like the whole art form |
[3601.10 --> 3606.30] is if you can say like, Hey, my project helps scientists, then they'll be like, Oh, we fund science. |
[3606.30 --> 3610.46] We'll write you a grant. Like that's the, that was the thing that three years ago, I wouldn't have been |
[3610.46 --> 3615.42] able to like say because I didn't know scientists had these problems until somebody approached me and |
[3615.42 --> 3622.38] like convinced me to work on it. So yeah, it's like if you're detached from the social issues, |
[3622.38 --> 3625.66] then you have to find other ways of like supporting it. But like the Linux foundation |
[3625.66 --> 3630.46] found a way to support it, which is like all these companies like use it and they can help, |
[3630.46 --> 3631.90] you know, support the overall project. |
[3631.90 --> 3639.58] Where do you think there are gaps in knowledge between, um, grant makers and open source communities? |
[3640.06 --> 3644.22] What do you wish that like more funders knew about open source or vice versa? |
[3644.70 --> 3650.62] Um, so the biggest issue that I have is the way you have to write the grants up front with all the |
[3650.62 --> 3656.14] budget and all the plans. It's the same kind of, uh, distinction as like waterfall versus agile, |
[3656.14 --> 3661.74] for example, for example, this grant that we just got, the money arrives. We don't have to get into |
[3661.74 --> 3666.54] the mechanics of how you receive money from grant, but I'll just say that we, we had access to the |
[3666.54 --> 3672.78] actual grant money in essentially June. It was like two weeks ago. And, um, I wrote the grant with |
[3672.78 --> 3679.26] Carissa in October of last year. And so that's like a pretty long amount of time. I think it's like, |
[3679.82 --> 3684.94] almost nine months. So we had an idea, we wrote a grant and then nine months later we get the money. |
[3684.94 --> 3690.30] And I would say that's like a, that's on the longer side for a film topic grant, but it's not uncommon. |
[3690.30 --> 3695.98] So, I mean, if you, if I had to tell you what I was going to work on in nine months from now, |
[3695.98 --> 3700.38] I wouldn't be able to tell you, but that's like another art form of grant writing is being able to |
[3701.02 --> 3705.34] write a grant that's vague enough that you can still, once you start getting the money, |
[3705.34 --> 3708.94] you can still like use the money to work on the thing you said you were going to work on nine months |
[3708.94 --> 3716.06] ago. And so one thing that I wish that foundations would understand is, um, timelines and agility and |
[3716.06 --> 3720.30] like basically what I would much rather have. And I understand that there's like, |
[3720.94 --> 3724.70] you have to have a high level of trust to do something like this, but what I, my preferred |
[3724.70 --> 3729.90] situation would be like, I have a relationship with a funder. I convinced them that we're the |
[3729.90 --> 3734.38] right people to work on the right issues. And so we get the people in the issues locked down |
[3734.38 --> 3741.34] and are like the causes. And then, um, I can basically go back to them and say, okay, now |
[3741.34 --> 3746.54] I need a budget for the next three months to do this. And that can be like a lightweight process |
[3746.54 --> 3752.70] once I've like got in the door with them. Um, but right now the way it works is you do everything in |
[3752.70 --> 3756.78] one big proposal, including the budget. And then you're locked into that for the entire duration of |
[3756.78 --> 3761.66] the grant budget. So it means that you have to plan ahead a lot and you're, you're constrained by |
[3761.66 --> 3766.70] the budget as you're doing the project. So for example, like say Nadia, that you wanted to come |
[3766.70 --> 3772.54] work on my team. I couldn't hire you today because I don't have any extra budget. I, what I could do is |
[3772.54 --> 3776.62] say, let's write a grant together. And then in nine months, maybe we'll have a budget to hire you. |
[3776.62 --> 3781.34] So it's, it's kind of like annoying because most startups have this slush funds that they can |
[3781.34 --> 3786.62] draw from, uh, as they need to, um, which is like the initial investment. But the way grants work is |
[3786.62 --> 3793.26] you, you, um, your budget is not a big slush fund. It's like a paid out in increments, like burn rate |
[3793.26 --> 3800.22] that they like to be constant. So I can't hire people on a day to day basis and can't like readjust |
[3800.22 --> 3806.38] the budget, like as the thing is in flight. So that's annoying. Um, so there's definitely some |
[3806.38 --> 3812.70] cultural differences in the way that they actually funds. Um, and also I think if you ask most nonprofits, |
[3812.70 --> 3818.06] like they don't think about open source, um, and most funders probably aren't thinking about |
[3818.06 --> 3821.74] open source, but I think that is changing. I think there's like the perception that there's |
[3821.74 --> 3828.62] not any funding out there for open source stuff. Um, I think if you ask most open source developers, |
[3829.66 --> 3835.18] um, to write a grant, they'll write a grant that's like super technical and has no social impacts, |
[3835.18 --> 3840.46] like linkage or whatever, like what I've been talking about. And so then they'll think that, |
[3840.46 --> 3844.54] oh, well I wrote a grant to write like a new encryption scheme for this thing or whatever, |
[3844.54 --> 3850.14] or like a new database. And, um, like, there's probably not a lot of places that will just fund |
[3850.14 --> 3856.14] you to work on random technology. But, um, if you make your grant about fixing an actual problem in |
[3856.14 --> 3862.38] society, then I think grant people will be like, oh, you want to fix this problem and you're going to |
[3862.38 --> 3866.86] do it as open source. Like that's actually a competitive advantage over our other. Cause I think |
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