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[2263.82 --> 2267.98] Um, I think like a lot of people are probably thinking, well, if you only have $96,000, you're |
[2267.98 --> 2272.86] not going to get great people. Um, but actually, I mean, you, you have some severely hard problems |
[2272.86 --> 2277.82] you've been working on and you've gotten some really amazing people to, to work on them. I don't think |
[2277.82 --> 2282.54] that people really appreciate the scope of some of the technical problems in that. Um, |
[2282.54 --> 2286.86] Speaker 1 But you were able to, you know, get Matthias Spuse, who's like one of the most prolific |
[2286.86 --> 2291.58] programmers in the world. Um, and you, you've essentially, you know, implemented a custom |
[2291.58 --> 2296.70] Merkle tree, which is like basically like, uh, for, for audience that doesn't know what that is, |
[2296.70 --> 2301.42] you basically re-implemented Git, uh, and then you backed it by like a BitTorrent network for efficient |
[2301.42 --> 2306.38] sharing and stuff like that. Like it's, this is not simple work. Um, and, and you have a small team |
[2306.38 --> 2311.66] of like really amazing people and were able to get really amazing people. Like how, how did you go about getting all of |
[2311.66 --> 2316.46] those people and getting such great people to work for, you know, less than, uh, you know, |
[2316.46 --> 2320.46] San Francisco market rate, but, but, you know, a fair amount of money. Um, that's a good question. |
[2320.46 --> 2326.62] I think Matthias was the obvious choice for me. I had never met him actually, but, um, I published a |
[2326.62 --> 2333.26] lot of no JS modules. And, um, so I was aware of him because he also was publishing a lot of like |
[2333.26 --> 2338.14] modules to NPM. And, um, I felt like the NPM community was really cool because there was a lot |
[2338.14 --> 2344.06] of people trying to produce reusable software and, um, also produce like efficient streaming |
[2344.06 --> 2349.74] software for writing like data infrastructure. And Matthias actually had a file sharing startup. |
[2350.06 --> 2354.78] Um, that we joke now that he was, he was basically doing everything that we're doing now, except |
[2354.78 --> 2359.74] doing it in like a centralized way. And now he's doing, he's just been working on the same |
[2359.74 --> 2365.50] like user experience, like sharing a bunch of files in a browser. But, um, now we're doing it in a way |
[2365.50 --> 2372.30] that like works for that's like decentralized. And so he was like, uh, I just knew he was awesome. |
[2372.30 --> 2377.34] And I actually just DMed him on Twitter and was like, uh, Hey, I don't know if you have a job right |
[2377.34 --> 2382.14] now, but, uh, I just got this grant and I can hire people to work on these problems. Like, are you |
[2382.14 --> 2387.90] interested? And, um, he still had a job, but he was in Denmark. So it was like, even though it was a |
[2387.90 --> 2392.22] full-time job, it's a Denmark full-time job. So it's like a part-time job in America. |
[2392.22 --> 2398.86] Yeah. And, uh, so he just said, yeah, cool. I'll work part-time. And then, uh, he eventually |
[2398.86 --> 2403.02] quit his job and has been working full-time for about a year and a half or two years now. |
[2403.58 --> 2408.14] And then Carissa is another, um, like the next person that we hired and she is awesome. She |
[2408.14 --> 2412.14] was working at a startup that got bought and they were trying to build a GitHub for data, |
[2412.14 --> 2416.06] but then it got bought and it turned into like an enterprise thing that she didn't want to work on |
[2416.06 --> 2420.62] anymore. And she just found our project because we were out there and we were at open source |
[2420.62 --> 2424.70] conferences. And that's the way that I found Matias was I was involved in open source and |
[2424.70 --> 2429.42] I was involved in the community and I had, you know, like I went to, I've been going to open |
[2429.42 --> 2435.26] source conferences since like, uh, I was 19 or whatever. So I just had a lot of, um, |
[2436.14 --> 2440.86] time invested in the community. So I think if I was going to underscore like one thing, it's that like, |
[2441.74 --> 2445.34] if you're a coder that wants to go down the path of supporting yourself through grants, |
[2445.34 --> 2449.74] it's really important that you go to as many community events as possible, both to meet funders, |
[2449.74 --> 2456.30] but to meet coworkers and expose yourself to different ideas. Um, and like the intersectional |
[2456.30 --> 2460.06] thing that Nadia mentioned, like, I think that's huge. Like having an interdisciplinary, |
[2460.06 --> 2464.86] interdisciplinary view of like, you should be able to tell people what your software, like, |
[2465.66 --> 2471.18] what communities your software affects, not just like, um, like in a utopic way or whatever, |
[2471.18 --> 2475.74] but like in a concrete way, like for us, because we spent so many years figuring it out, |
[2476.70 --> 2481.02] um, our key focus areas, I guess, is science, journalism, and government. We think that those |
[2481.02 --> 2487.18] are three really cool areas that there's actually a lot of fun, like funding to try to, um, like not, |
[2487.18 --> 2493.02] I don't want to say fix, but there's a lot of funding to, um, invest in better solutions because |
[2493.58 --> 2497.50] everybody knows journalism is trying to reinvent itself because nobody's buying papers anymore. |
[2497.50 --> 2503.42] And, um, government has had a lot of innovation lately because of code for America and healthcare.gov |
[2503.42 --> 2509.98] being such a disaster. And there's this us digital service now. And, um, science is kind of what we've |
[2509.98 --> 2515.50] been working on mostly, but I think that science journalism and government are three really interesting |
[2516.70 --> 2522.46] areas that if you're a programmer, there's tons of exciting and challenging problems. And they're also |
[2522.46 --> 2528.30] like, they're the foundations of our society that we should all support anyway. Um, like going to work |
[2528.30 --> 2534.78] at a startup, like getting people to like engage with advertising more, um, doesn't have the same |
[2535.42 --> 2541.42] like moral imperative as, uh, like fixing the way that people are informed about what's happening in |
[2541.42 --> 2546.46] their community or whatever, like fixing local government or making scientific results, like more |
[2546.46 --> 2553.42] available in the longterm things like that. So like, we do definitely play a little bit. I mean, it's not like |
[2554.06 --> 2559.90] coercive, but, um, the reason we're able to get like, or the reason that my team, we don't have that many |
[2559.90 --> 2566.54] people, by the way. Um, we just went from three to five and then we have a couple of part-time contractors. |
[2567.18 --> 2572.86] So we're not like a huge team, but, um, I think that the reason that we're able to get, I think everybody on our team is |
[2572.86 --> 2578.94] super world-class and the reason we're able to get world-class people is because we are, uh, we give |
[2578.94 --> 2584.70] people a huge degree of freedom. So people are basically their own bosses if they want to be, |
[2584.70 --> 2591.18] but I also try to support them as much as I can. Um, and everything you get to do is open source |
[2591.18 --> 2597.18] and you're impacting like an actual, like there's a direct impact of your work because we're, we're |
[2597.18 --> 2602.70] essentially like, like working directly for a specific community. In our case, it's been mostly scientists. |
[2603.66 --> 2609.58] Um, and so it's like meaningful. So I think it's important that, um, it's not just like you show |
[2609.58 --> 2615.58] up to work and you get stock options and compensation and you work on like a backlog of issues, but I feel |
[2615.58 --> 2620.78] like everybody on our team is more like, um, like I encourage people to have their own projects that |
[2621.58 --> 2625.26] are, that they're passionate about, that they can be the owners of, which also helps in a remote |
[2625.26 --> 2629.90] working context. Cause if you have your own projects that you're the owner of, then you don't have to, |
[2629.90 --> 2635.90] um, sync up with other people to work on it. But then we also have like team level projects that we |
[2635.90 --> 2642.70] all try to collaborate on. I think that we basically use the grant money to hire a bunch of really smart |
[2642.70 --> 2651.10] people and are not smart, but, um, like passionate and invested people into the problem. And then just |
[2651.10 --> 2658.06] pay them to basically like almost like bell lab style. Um, just like incentivize them to work on a |
[2658.06 --> 2663.26] set of problems that are like pretty high level and contribute to the ecosystem. And I really view |
[2663.26 --> 2670.14] it as like, we're just a bunch of people getting paid to like, try to explore like the future of |
[2670.14 --> 2675.74] how scientific data is shared. Um, but we're not, if we were running ourselves like a startup, we would |
[2675.74 --> 2682.06] try to, um, you know, have everything be branded under our name and have everything be like productized |
[2682.06 --> 2687.02] or whatever, or like strategically open source things and strategically close source things. But for us, |
[2687.02 --> 2692.06] I feel like everybody on our team is like acting as an individual. And then sometimes we work together |
[2692.06 --> 2696.70] on bigger projects, but really it's like, we just try to get the best people and get them working in |
[2696.70 --> 2700.46] this space because otherwise they won't be incentivized to work on these problems. They'll go and |
[2701.90 --> 2707.58] get funding from elsewhere, like AKA get a job and go and work on some other problem. That's not |
[2707.58 --> 2712.14] supporting the scientists. And I mean, some of the solutions to those problems are going to end up being |
[2712.14 --> 2716.94] better as their own thing, not attached to that. Right. Like, you know, it's about what's best for |
[2716.94 --> 2721.10] the project and for the solution to the problem, not necessarily, you know, tying everything and |
[2721.10 --> 2725.74] making it on brand the way that you would in a startup. Right. Right. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. |
[2726.38 --> 2730.30] All right. I think we're, uh, we're coming up for a break pretty soon. Um, in a few minutes, |
[2730.30 --> 2736.30] we're going to deep dive, uh, into what it's like to get paid to work on your passion. We'll be right back. |
[2736.30 --> 2743.82] Hey everyone. Adam Stachowiak here, editor in chief of change log. And I want to tell you about |
[2743.82 --> 2751.90] our cloud server of choice, linode.com. Head to linode.com slash RFC, get an SSE server running in |
[2751.90 --> 2757.74] seconds. Plan started just 10 bucks a month. And when I say our cloud server of choice, what I mean is |
[2757.74 --> 2766.14] that all of change log is hosted on Linode. Everything we do at changelog.com is on a Linode server. |
[2766.14 --> 2773.02] What I'd like you to do is go to linode.com slash RFC, pick a plan, pick a distro, pick a location, |
[2773.02 --> 2780.14] and start your server today. Use our promo code RFC 20 for a $20 credit. Linode.com slash RFC. |
[2787.34 --> 2791.98] And we're, uh, we're back with Max Ogden. All right, Max. So, uh, I want to get into, |
[2791.98 --> 2796.06] to kind of the whole paying people to work on open source thing. And especially a lot of the |
[2796.06 --> 2799.90] stuff you said about giving people a lot of autonomy, kind of letting them deal with whatever, |
[2799.90 --> 2805.50] um, because I've seen that go bad as well as good. Um, I think the classic example is that |
[2805.50 --> 2810.46] Tim O'Reilly paid Larry Wall to work on Pearl. And that was when Pearl stopped really caring about |
[2810.46 --> 2815.66] its users and went down this Pearl six thing for like a decade. Um, and so like when you change the |
[2815.66 --> 2820.38] incentive structures around open source and you're just paying people to work on whatever, um, does it |
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