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[1221.10 --> 1222.62] Like, how does this even work? |
[1224.14 --> 1228.86] I probably have a different answer than a lot of people. Um, because there's the word grant is, |
[1228.86 --> 1234.62] you know, it could mean government grants. It could mean, um, EU, EU grants. Um, I've noticed, |
[1234.62 --> 1242.54] I have a, someone that I work with that's in Denmark. Um, and the, they don't have this phenomenon of |
[1242.54 --> 1247.98] like eccentric billionaires that are either alive or dead that give away all their money through a |
[1247.98 --> 1252.46] trust because they're trying to evade taxes. And so they set up like a giant charitable trust, |
[1252.46 --> 1257.58] like Howard Hughes. Uh, I think it's the third largest endowment in the world that was started |
[1257.58 --> 1262.06] at. So Howard Hughes could hide his tax money from the U S government. And then when he died, |
[1262.06 --> 1266.70] um, there was all this money. And so they're like, oh, we could start a medical institute and make grants |
[1266.70 --> 1271.98] with it. Um, and they actually run an entire neuroscience research facility off of the income, |
[1271.98 --> 1277.26] like the accrued interest or whatever on the, the original endowment, because there's just so much |
[1277.26 --> 1282.22] money in that thing. So that's kind of like an American thing is the philanthropic private |
[1282.22 --> 1287.42] foundations that are like these eccentric, mostly white male, rich billionaire people are all of our |
[1287.42 --> 1292.22] grants have been, uh, dead rich billionaires. However, there are also alive, rich billionaires, |
[1292.22 --> 1296.86] um, such as Bill Gates. So that, but that, that's totally, I didn't realize, but that's totally |
[1296.86 --> 1301.10] American phenomenon in the, in Europe, they have a functioning government that makes grants. So |
[1301.82 --> 1306.62] most of the grants, like in say that you're Danish and you want to go get a grant, like, |
[1306.62 --> 1311.42] because everybody pays so much taxes and they don't have as much private philanthropy, |
[1312.06 --> 1315.02] you end up getting your grants from the government, but they have like way more developed |
[1315.02 --> 1319.66] government grant programs in the U S when you get a government grant, it's usually like really big |
[1319.66 --> 1323.66] and you have to be a pretty big institution. So those are actually pretty intimidating. Um, |
[1323.66 --> 1328.06] I don't think I'll ever get a U S government grant. I think that I could get a EU grant if I |
[1328.06 --> 1332.86] was a EU citizen doing what I do now because they're targeted at smaller things. A lot of the time, |
[1332.86 --> 1335.66] the EU grants also get a lot bigger. So it kind of depends on where you're at. |
[1336.22 --> 1341.02] Um, so that's the first thing is like, don't expect, like if you've heard one person's grant |
[1341.02 --> 1346.22] experience, like there's probably way different levels of grants. Um, so just learning how to |
[1346.22 --> 1351.90] navigate like which grants you actually want to go for, um, is like the first step. Um, but also, |
[1352.46 --> 1358.54] uh, I think that to me, it's not about the grant writing. Um, the grant writing happens once you've |
[1358.54 --> 1363.42] developed the relationship with the person that you're writing the grant for. This is like, if you |
[1363.42 --> 1369.66] don't take anything away from this entire interview, um, I would say that if you want to go down the path of |
[1369.66 --> 1375.74] getting grant money for open source, you have to start building the relationships now. And it takes years of |
[1375.74 --> 1380.94] time to develop those relationships. So that's the biggest disappointment when I talk to people |
[1380.94 --> 1385.90] about like, cause people are like, okay, I could go get VC and try to start like a company that does |
[1385.90 --> 1389.82] this open source thing and then figures out a way to make money off of it. And what's really cool about |
[1389.82 --> 1396.46] VC is you get money like really quickly. Um, but then you have to like down the road, make these |
[1396.46 --> 1402.70] compromising decisions where you have to weigh like your values across against like the shareholder |
[1402.70 --> 1409.10] income returns and stuff like that. So with grants, you don't get money quickly, you get money slowly, |
[1409.10 --> 1414.46] but then you never have to make you do. Yeah. And sometimes very slowly. Um, but the cool thing |
[1414.46 --> 1421.98] about it is you never have to make those like, um, judgment calls. Like you're, you're always working |
[1421.98 --> 1427.66] on what you want to be working on because you had to go through this process that you've like through the |
[1427.66 --> 1433.34] grant process to me is finding somebody that trusts you and then writing like the grant itself is the |
[1433.34 --> 1437.50] thing. That's like the contract between you and the funder. That's like, here's the mission that |
[1437.50 --> 1443.02] I'm working on. And they're never going to be like, um, like I haven't had any experiences like this, |
[1443.02 --> 1448.38] at least I think some people have had this happen to them, but I guess I've been lucky. I've never had |
[1448.38 --> 1454.06] the funder come to me and say, Hey, change what you're working on. Um, like we, you have to do |
[1454.06 --> 1459.26] this now. It's not like they have, um, I, I at least don't feel like they have influence over my |
[1459.26 --> 1464.30] day-to-day direction because like I've already upfront established like what it is that the |
[1464.30 --> 1469.10] mission is. And they basically just give you money for a time window so that you can pursue |
[1469.10 --> 1473.02] that mission. And all they want at the end of it is to know what happened and what went wrong. |
[1473.82 --> 1479.58] So they want like a report. So it's like, you end up doing a grant. That's a grant right up at |
[1479.58 --> 1483.02] the beginning. That's like the pitch. That's like, here's what I want to work on. Can we agree? |
[1484.06 --> 1489.90] But, and then you do a report like in the middle and at the ends. Um, but that all actually comes |
[1489.90 --> 1496.46] after you spent a lot of time finding the right foundation in the U S for example, find the foundation, |
[1496.46 --> 1502.86] building the relationships. Um, and ideally you want the funder to, um, like approach you and say, |
[1503.02 --> 1509.74] Hey, it would be really cool if you applied to us with this idea. Um, so that process is |
[1510.54 --> 1514.94] probably, uh, people have different ways of doing it. For me, it was, I worked at Code for America, |
[1514.94 --> 1521.58] which was funded by, I think like six foundations. Um, Code for America was pretty well funded in the |
[1521.58 --> 1527.42] private foundation space. And, uh, I also, because I was working at Code for America, that was the year |
[1527.42 --> 1533.18] that I got, um, I got to start doing open source full time, um, because Code for America encourages |
[1533.18 --> 1538.78] all the fellows to do open source for everything so that it can be reusable. And so because I was |
[1538.78 --> 1542.46] doing open source full time, I started getting more involved in open source communities. And I started |
[1542.46 --> 1547.82] going to more events like community events and meeting more people and networking. And so the |
[1547.82 --> 1553.34] combination of working for a nonprofit that was grant funded and going to events, um, in that |
[1553.34 --> 1559.10] ecosystem, um, meant that I met funders face to face. And I can't stress how important that is. |
[1559.10 --> 1563.98] Like if, um, like I said, like, if you take one thing away from this entire thing, it's that |
[1564.78 --> 1569.82] don't go to like, you're not going to, I mean, I love JSConf for example, and I love NodeConf, |
[1569.82 --> 1574.70] but you're not going to meet like people from the Knight Foundation at a JavaScript conference. |
[1574.70 --> 1579.98] Like you meet them at, uh, like I used to go to this conference called the civic media conference, |
[1579.98 --> 1585.66] which was the MIT MIT would host it. And I was living in the city of Boston for, um, |
[1585.66 --> 1590.14] the code for America fellowship. And when you go to a conference, that's like about, uh, |
[1590.14 --> 1593.82] it can still be a technical, technically focused conference or like a technology conference, |
[1593.82 --> 1598.22] but when it's focused on a specific issue, like the civic media conference is about like the way |
[1598.22 --> 1603.18] that information is used in society. It's kind of like this high level idea, but at least it's like a |
[1603.18 --> 1608.22] particular like social direction. When you go to those kinds of conferences, you, you immediately start |
[1608.22 --> 1612.38] meeting other people that are funded by grants, or you meet the people that make the grants, |
[1612.38 --> 1619.18] like the foundation people. So I think that the key to grant funding is not just looking at it |
[1619.18 --> 1623.66] through a technical lens, but looking at it through a holistic lens of like, what am I actually going |
[1623.66 --> 1627.74] to do with the technology? And then finding out the events for that and going to those events and |
[1627.74 --> 1632.46] then meeting the people. And then once you have the relationships, um, then the rest of it, |
[1632.46 --> 1636.54] the actual grant writing process starts. But I don't think if, I think if you start, |
[1636.54 --> 1639.98] start writing grants without any of those relationships, you'll have like nine out of |
[1639.98 --> 1643.82] 10 grants won't get approved. I would echo that like, yeah, thousand percent. |
[1644.86 --> 1647.74] Um, it's actually, it's fine. Like even hearing you talk about it, um, |
[1647.74 --> 1652.06] it reminds me a lot of venture capital. Um, and the advice is really similar, which is |
[1652.54 --> 1657.98] like build real relationships with investors. Um, ideally you want them coming to you saying, |
[1657.98 --> 1663.02] this is a really great fit for us. Um, versus just sort of like cold applying to an email |
[1663.02 --> 1668.22] address and hoping that someone will get back to you. And I think you did a great job just |
[1668.22 --> 1673.34] sort of deconstructing how some of that could be less scary than you think, but that, yeah, |
[1673.34 --> 1679.90] I mean, meet them where they're at and go to events where they are or find, um, like the way I got |
[1679.90 --> 1686.22] my forward funding was through a mutual connection. Um, and I wasn't even looking for funding, but I just |
[1686.22 --> 1690.94] sort of explained what I was doing. And that person was like, oh, I know who you should be talking to. |
[1690.94 --> 1694.86] But I think there's sort of like this running theme, even in this conversation around |
[1695.66 --> 1701.58] intersectionality and going sort of like out of your own sector to get inspiration from different |
[1701.58 --> 1706.70] sectors, which is both creatively stimulating, but also just allows you to meet people outside of |
[1706.70 --> 1712.62] like your most say like technical network. I think that's really important. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, |
[1712.62 --> 1717.34] you mentioned, you know, you've gotten a lot of grants and they seem to be stepping up in terms of |
[1717.34 --> 1721.42] the amount of money that you're getting over time. Um, I'm wondering if you could just walk us |
[1721.42 --> 1725.74] through like the grants that you've gotten and any changes that may have happened to the project or |
[1725.74 --> 1730.62] changes in direction that you may have gone down in order to get those grants or to work with those. |
[1730.62 --> 1734.38] Cause you said that, you know, you're not changing mid course, but it does seem like if you're, |
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