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[663.56 --> 669.14] The idea is that by the end of it, you've, um, given the city, like a different lens to view, |
[669.14 --> 674.60] like a process for developing software. So actually the hardest thing about it was we had to come up |
[674.60 --> 678.50] with a way of contracting for support for the open source apps that we did because they were |
[678.50 --> 684.46] deployed on, um, Heroku and they didn't know how to, uh, maintain Heroku services. And so |
[684.46 --> 688.96] it turned out that the biggest outcome of the entire thing was like, we now had a way, |
[689.10 --> 694.74] we like had to draft a new procurement policy for the city of Boston that let them support open |
[694.74 --> 700.56] source software, um, like have a support contract with a open source vendor. And that was like a |
[700.56 --> 704.56] totally new groundbreaking thing for them because usually the support contracts are built into |
[704.56 --> 708.84] these huge multimillion con multimillion dollar contracts. But the idea that they could have |
[708.84 --> 714.06] like a $5,000, um, open source support contract, just so that if the app went down, they had somebody |
[714.06 --> 719.84] that could, they could call to help them. Um, like it was like those kinds of small wins that actually |
[719.84 --> 725.48] were the long lasting effects. Whereas going into it, I thought we were going to, um, I didn't know |
[725.48 --> 728.08] that procurement was going to be like the focus of all of our efforts. |
[728.08 --> 736.82] It's an awesome story. And you started, so that was 2011, right? And then you started debt a couple |
[736.82 --> 741.74] years later, right? Um, yeah. And I'm assuming some of those experiences ended up feeding into |
[741.74 --> 744.28] the kind of work you ended up doing moving forward. |
[744.66 --> 749.16] Yeah. Like in the last couple of months, um, when I was working at the city of Boston, I ended up, um, |
[749.54 --> 755.16] working on a bunch of different like little prototype applications and, um, we were working with the |
[755.16 --> 760.52] public school system. And so we ended up another big thing that we didn't see was how much time we |
[760.52 --> 766.56] spent talking to lawyers about student data, um, and learned a lot of things about what we can and |
[766.56 --> 773.68] can't use in terms of datasets to build applications, um, because of privacy issues. Um, and so it was |
[773.68 --> 779.28] like, uh, for the year long fellowship near the end, I started working on kind of the thing that I had |
[779.28 --> 784.28] been working on in Portland, which was a better way to disseminate the data that the city had and |
[784.28 --> 791.00] make it available to people, um, to build things. And, um, so like data platforms sort of, and my, |
[791.14 --> 797.96] my motivating factor was, um, data is read only usually like when a city has data, data that they |
[797.96 --> 802.32] collect, they collect it for their own purposes. And then if they have an open data policy, they make |
[802.32 --> 807.14] it available to people, but they don't make it available in like a GitHub way. They make it |
[807.14 --> 814.92] available in like a download our CSV way. Um, and so people, if they use the data and found errors |
[814.92 --> 821.26] in the data, or they wanted to clean up the dataset, um, like say that I'm building an application and I |
[821.26 --> 826.20] have users that are contributing data that the city might want to know about. Um, like for example, |
[826.20 --> 834.04] if I'm, uh, if I have like a running, like a jogging application and I have, um, a better data set that |
[834.04 --> 841.72] the city has of where the, the, um, joggable paths are inside of parks, like, wouldn't the city want to |
[841.72 --> 848.70] know, um, like have higher quality data about where the pathways are versus they're like, um, potentially |
[848.70 --> 853.26] out of, out of date dataset. So like the idea of having the dataset be read, right. Was like a |
[853.26 --> 858.64] motivating factor for me, but there wasn't any, um, there were, there's basically no like version |
[858.64 --> 863.10] control tool for datasets that was out there. And so I started kind of like going down that rabbit |
[863.10 --> 867.92] hole a little bit. And then I was like, Oh, this is a huge project. It's going to take a lot of time. |
[868.00 --> 873.42] So then I didn't work on it after the fellowship for about a year or maybe like a year and a half. |
[873.52 --> 878.30] And then I was like, Oh, nobody's doing this still. I should probably do it. And then I started |
[878.30 --> 882.36] pursuing the idea of debt, like more as like a full-time thing. |
[882.36 --> 887.78] So it sounds like the Genesis of it was around, uh, government data, but the project now is mainly |
[887.78 --> 893.40] focused on like scientific data and scientists. So like, how did that transition get made? |
[893.78 --> 899.30] Um, it was actually also kind of this fortuitous meeting. I had gone to the Mozilla festival, |
[899.86 --> 905.94] um, which is an awesome festival. It's basically like nine conferences at once in this big building |
[905.94 --> 910.22] in London. And it's all these different open knowledge, open culture, open science, open source, |
[910.22 --> 915.14] open journalism, open data. It's like all of these different, awesome overlapping communities. |
[915.96 --> 923.74] Um, so I went to this thing and I had, um, I had like a prototype of debt, um, that I had developed. |
[923.92 --> 930.38] And then, uh, I think I gave like a lightning talk on it or something. And this, uh, grant officer |
[930.38 --> 936.44] from a foundation actually came up to me who was at the conference. And he said, um, Hey, |
[936.44 --> 941.78] I saw that you were doing stuff around, uh, dataset sharing and, you know, better tools for |
[941.78 --> 947.48] syncing data, datasets. Um, and you're, you're working on government. Have you ever thought |
[947.48 --> 953.58] about scientific, um, users? And I was like, well, I think science is really cool, but I, |
[953.86 --> 959.02] you know, I'm a college dropout and I've never, I have no credentials and I don't really know. |
[959.02 --> 964.56] Um, and he's like, well, I think it's the same. He actually kind of like said, I think that what |
[964.56 --> 968.66] you're doing is exactly what a lot of scientists need right now, but you don't know it yet. |
[969.48 --> 973.78] And I was like, Whoa, okay. That's interesting. And I think he ended up being totally right. |
[974.02 --> 979.64] And so the funder actually approached me and convinced me to work on their, like, um, |
[980.14 --> 985.50] their like social issue, so to speak. I thought that that was really interesting that, um, just getting |
[985.50 --> 989.58] a prototype out there and going to the right conference where you have this interdisciplinary |
[989.58 --> 994.76] crowd, um, and kind of saying like, Hey, like declaring to the world, like, Hey, I'm working |
[994.76 --> 999.92] on this thing. Here's like a demo or here's like a prototype for me. It worked out because somebody |
[999.92 --> 1004.78] said, Oh, I totally need that. But it's in this area that you don't know that you should be working |
[1004.78 --> 1011.20] on yet. And it helps that they were also a person that could write grants. So that was kind of like, |
[1011.20 --> 1016.56] that was another moment that totally changed the course of like my last four years was like this |
[1016.56 --> 1022.48] one chance meeting at the Mozilla festival. And I think it was 2013. Awesome. Um, we're about to |
[1022.48 --> 1028.26] head to our break, but when we return, we'll dive into the grant process and, um, some of the more |
[1028.26 --> 1037.58] organizational aspects. Hey everyone, Adam Stachowiak here, editor in chief of ChangeLog. And if you're |
[1037.58 --> 1046.30] looking to hire the best freelance talent out there at the top top.com that's top.com power, the top 3% |
[1046.30 --> 1053.42] of freelance talent out there, the world's best developers and designers, white glove service, risk |
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[1065.66 --> 1072.78] head to top top.com that's T O P T A L.com. Tell them Adam from the change log sent you. They'll take |
[1072.78 --> 1079.26] great care of you. If you'd like a more personal introduction, email me, Adam at change log.com. |
[1087.42 --> 1092.94] All right, we're back with Max Ogden of the DAT projects, and we're talking about grant funding. |
[1092.94 --> 1098.38] So I'm curious, Max, uh, when you started doing this, it sounds like you sort of fell into this |
[1098.38 --> 1103.50] fortuitous meeting with a grant funder, but how did you know that grant funding was right for you |
[1103.50 --> 1108.94] with this project? Why didn't you just build that in your spare time? Um, so I would give a lot of |
[1108.94 --> 1113.98] credit to the Knight Foundation. They have been doing a lot of work to try to make grant funding less |
[1113.98 --> 1119.02] scary. Um, one of the things that they've done is they, which I was, I think I was the first person |
[1119.02 --> 1124.30] that got one of these, um, just because of like a right place, right time kind of thing. Um, it was |
[1124.30 --> 1130.14] called the Knight prototype funds. And cause usually their grants are, um, multi-year commitment and they |
[1130.14 --> 1134.62] take a lot more work up front because you're planning kind of waterfall style for this multi-year period. |
[1134.62 --> 1139.66] Um, that's like the traditional, um, kind of grant structure is you're doing these bigger projects. |
[1140.30 --> 1145.02] And Knight said, um, it takes, if it takes three years to evaluate if something worked or not, |
[1145.02 --> 1151.10] that's kind of a long turnaround time. So instead they came up with a prototype and it's, uh, originally, |
[1151.10 --> 1156.38] it was $50,000 for six months for one person to make a prototype of something and test an idea out. |
[1156.86 --> 1161.50] And then they revised it. And I think now it's $30,000. So it's kind of like a part-time, um, |
[1161.50 --> 1166.22] full-time or part-time kind of like, if you don't have the time to quit your job or you don't |
[1166.22 --> 1170.22] want to make a, like a huge risk doing like a multi-year thing on something that you're not |
[1170.22 --> 1174.78] sure about yet, or they even want you to take the prototype and develop it into a full grant. |
[1174.78 --> 1180.30] That's kind of how they see the pathway going. So I think that progressive thinking around, um, |
[1180.30 --> 1185.02] smaller funding is really interesting. And I think Knight, the only reason that I got into this was |
[1185.02 --> 1189.50] because I could start small and cause I didn't know enough to write a huge grant at the beginning, |
[1189.50 --> 1193.50] or I mean, huge meaning more than one person for six months. |
[1193.50 --> 1198.86] Yeah, definitely. I want to like explicitly plug the Knight prototype thing. Cause I think that's like, |
[1198.86 --> 1203.90] I've heard really good experiences around it. Um, and I think we'll get into it later, |
[1203.90 --> 1207.74] but just sort of like why grants are so scary to people. I think part of it is that you have these |
[1207.74 --> 1213.98] like enormous, uh, amounts of money or these like multi-year commitments. And so I really like that |
[1213.98 --> 1216.78] that one is much shorter and smaller amounts of money. |
[1216.78 --> 1221.10] Yeah. So let's get into that a bit, like in deconstruct this, like what is grant writing? |
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