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[145.12 --> 151.98] fellowship term started. And so I was just like, holy cow, this is crazy. I had to, I started talking
[151.98 --> 156.82] with the Code for America folks and applied for the fellowship and then got the fellowship, had to quit
[156.82 --> 163.36] my job and then move to California. And so it was like a big, it was like a very quick succession of
[163.36 --> 168.86] events that I didn't see coming that totally changed my life. Definitely. In many ways. So
[168.86 --> 173.16] it was kind of just like this one. I mean, I guess it was, it seemed random to me at the time, but
[173.16 --> 176.68] because I was in the right place in the right time kind of thing.
[177.36 --> 181.92] I actually met you when you got that award. I was at the same thing. And that was the first time
[181.92 --> 185.36] that I met you and you were like 19 or 20 at the time, but you still had that giant beard.
[187.46 --> 190.58] Nice. I didn't realize that you were there. That's crazy. I never knew that.
[190.58 --> 195.84] Yeah. Yeah. We were there with Jay Chris and talked about Couch TV stuff and, and the upcoming
[195.84 --> 200.70] event, the upcoming couch camp thing that we were going to do. Max is actually the first person
[200.70 --> 204.72] to buy a ticket to the first event that I ever ran in 2009.
[206.12 --> 207.04] Way to go, Max.
[207.52 --> 212.30] Yeah. And I remember when I first went to Oakland's right after I moved down to the Bay Area,
[212.90 --> 216.04] or maybe I visited the Bay Area ahead of time, but basically the first person I met up with
[216.04 --> 221.84] was Michael. We like, I, he had like biked to a really cool coffee shop and I was like,
[221.90 --> 225.82] whoa, Oakland is awesome. And then I ended up living there for four years. So a lot of
[225.82 --> 228.08] transformative things happened for me in 2010.
[229.54 --> 235.14] Can you talk about that a little bit? Just sort of like how, I think you're at a startup
[235.14 --> 239.70] before you were at Code for America. And it sounds like Code for America just helped you think about
[239.70 --> 244.76] different applications of code and ways you hadn't necessarily done before, for work.
[244.76 --> 251.00] Yeah. Before that I was working at a great team at a company, but the product wasn't anything
[251.00 --> 258.14] that I was like passionate about. It was qualitative market research. And so it's just kind of boring.
[258.64 --> 263.24] I didn't really, I didn't feel strongly about helping companies target their products or whatever.
[264.50 --> 271.66] But I got super lucky because the team was super supportive and it was a really good place for me
[271.66 --> 276.06] as a college dropout to learn all the things that I needed to learn to be a functioning,
[276.68 --> 282.92] contributing programmer to society. And so I really feel like I got, like nowadays, I feel like I was
[282.92 --> 289.84] ahead of the curve. This was like the mid 2000s, late 2000s. I was a junior programmer and I, and like
[289.84 --> 293.98] the dream of a junior programmer is to get on a team where you're supported and mentored and given
[293.98 --> 300.14] challenges and not expected to, you know, work weekends and like all this kind of thing. And Portland is
[300.14 --> 305.32] pretty cool because the culture here is very family oriented and like personal oriented and
[305.32 --> 312.52] not about, you know, like working for your company at all costs. And so I feel like now I'm ahead of
[312.52 --> 315.62] the, I was ahead of the curve then because now I talked to junior programmers and they're like,
[315.70 --> 319.38] Oh, I wish that I could get any job where I'm like supported and mentored, but there's like no
[319.38 --> 324.14] jobs available for that. And there's this huge influx of people coming in. And I don't think a lot of
[324.14 --> 328.68] companies know how to mentor people. So I'm just like incredibly grateful that I had an awesome mentor
[328.68 --> 335.82] early on. So shout out to Dan Herrera. If he's, if he's listening, he taught me everything that I
[335.82 --> 341.40] know. That's a really lucky opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Uh, so like when you did
[341.40 --> 347.24] the X API, one of the, one of the premises of it was sort of, uh, don't try to provide data to
[347.24 --> 351.06] developers and something that they can understand, just give me the data and I'll make it accessible
[351.06 --> 355.88] to developers. Um, which was interesting because you didn't have a lot of kind of inroads with the
[355.88 --> 360.40] people publishing the data at the time. Um, but when you went into code for America there,
[360.40 --> 364.62] you're sort of paired with a municipality and you're working with the government to,
[364.62 --> 368.20] to kind of produce something. Can you tell me a little bit about what that transition was like?
[368.20 --> 373.48] So rather than just sort of pushing something to developers, um, that you get over a wall,
[373.48 --> 379.00] but actually working with the civic governments. Yeah. And, uh, the human side of code, I think is
[379.00 --> 385.26] that I learned through that process was like previously, I think you nailed it in the question.
[385.26 --> 391.16] Actually, previously I was sort of an outsider. I was a volunteer and I didn't feel like I could
[391.16 --> 394.32] actually influence the things that the people that were working for the government could do.
[394.40 --> 400.16] Technically, I just assumed that their process was set in stone and that, um, they weren't interested
[400.16 --> 405.76] in me as some random person, um, who wasn't, you know, official and wasn't paid to help them.
[405.76 --> 411.26] Um, and so I just did what I could. I took their data and tried to make it more useful on the outside.
[411.92 --> 416.26] Um, but I think that the stroke of genius in the model of code for America, which I think, I mean,
[416.26 --> 422.84] they, they copied teach for America, which is, um, like very, it's very overtly modeled on that.
[423.10 --> 427.76] And I think that the teacher America model is you embed people. And the code for America model is
[427.76 --> 433.32] also about embedding. And, uh, the, one of the really cool things about the code for America program
[433.32 --> 439.10] was you show up and the first week is about, um, understanding government culture and how you can
[439.10 --> 443.96] be an agent of change to show them like alternate alternative ways of doing things with technology,
[443.96 --> 450.06] but an emphasis that it's not technical. It's like a human problem. Um, or it's a lot of social
[450.06 --> 455.48] problems and sort of incentives problems. And we actually had like a negotiation workshop, which
[455.48 --> 460.26] is, was really, really useful. I still use the principles that I learned in that, like every day.
[460.26 --> 467.30] Um, I had thought negotiation was, was about, um, like if somebody is trying to detonate a bomb or
[467.30 --> 471.72] something, you like have to talk them down off of a ledge, but it turns out that negotiation is just
[471.72 --> 477.20] like, if you're talking to anyone in your day-to-day life and you're trying to be nice to them, like,
[477.26 --> 481.16] that's what negotiation is about. It's about like having respect for other people's points of view and
[481.16 --> 487.36] coming to like a positive outcome. So the fact that code for America didn't have us do like, you know,
[487.36 --> 491.26] like a bunch of technical things on our first week, but instead they had us talk about being
[491.26 --> 496.88] change agents and being like effective negotiators, I think speaks a lot to how they knew that it was
[496.88 --> 503.26] essentially about embedding us inside of government and having us kind of like inspire people, um,
[503.26 --> 507.80] with new ideas and have like an influx of, um, like crazy ideas that came out of it.
[508.40 --> 513.46] So the thing that it, at the end of it, like, so going into it, I thought it was a technical thing.
[513.46 --> 518.66] I thought I was going to be like, okay, I'll go make a bunch of cool like APIs or whatever, or build a bunch
[518.66 --> 525.76] of cool apps. And, um, then by the end of it though, I realized it was, uh, that people inside of
[525.76 --> 531.62] government aren't exposed to ideas like open source as much, um, because the hiring and the procurement
[531.62 --> 537.40] systems are essentially broken. So they don't have, I mean, they just don't have any way to get the, like to compete
[537.40 --> 542.60] with talent for people that go and work at Google or whatever. So by like the code for America model
[542.60 --> 547.54] is you literally get people to quit their jobs at Google for a year or like go on sabbatical and then
[547.54 --> 552.62] you get them to become government employees. And so, um, I didn't come from Google. I came from,
[552.62 --> 558.28] um, this like smaller company, but the general idea is just people from the, like practicing people from
[558.28 --> 563.66] the tech industry, um, get to go and do a year of public service. And so what was cool about it is that
[563.66 --> 568.06] I actually became a government employee. I went through the ethics training at the city of Boston.
[568.06 --> 573.24] I had a city of Boston.gov email address. Um, I mean, it was the whole shebang. I was like an
[573.24 --> 578.76] official, um, employee in the mayor's office. And so that was actually really empowering for me because
[578.76 --> 584.08] now I was on the other side of the wall, so to speak. Like when I was in Portland, I was just this
[584.08 --> 588.76] random person that was like volunteering. Um, didn't feel like I had any power to actually change
[588.76 --> 593.64] anything, but then now suddenly I was like a city of Boston employee. And so now I felt like
[593.66 --> 598.48] my opinions were valid on things and I could like, you know, set up meetings with CIOs and
[598.48 --> 601.62] talk to them about like, Hey, why are you procuring this horrible software? Why are you
[601.62 --> 606.28] not trying to set up more open? Uh, or like, why aren't you procuring open source software,
[606.28 --> 611.96] for example? So that was super cool. Just, I feel like it was a hack. Like they were hacking
[611.96 --> 616.20] the code for America hacked two things at once. It like gave me a lot of confidence that I actually,
[616.86 --> 621.42] like my opinions did matter because it made me feel like I was like the expert coming in and trying to
[621.42 --> 627.26] help people understand that they don't have to buy horrible software and hire people with horrible
[627.26 --> 631.34] credentials. They can actually, um, do things in a more progressive and modern open source way.
[631.38 --> 637.40] But, and then also to them, it was like exciting because they had somebody coming in and, um,
[637.62 --> 643.68] had a lot of excitement and enthusiasm. And I think I had, I definitely got a lot of people telling me
[643.68 --> 648.06] they were surprised that they didn't make me shave to work in Boston city hall. I had a giant beard
[648.06 --> 651.78] walking around Boston city hall. So it was like a bit of like a, it was definitely a bit of a culture,
[651.98 --> 659.10] culture change thing on purpose. Like it was the point of it was you go into, um, a city for a year
[659.10 --> 663.08] and you try to make some cool things, but by the end of it, you don't just leave and the things go away.