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[1734.38 --> 1738.38] if you're now going from, you know, a $500,000 grant to like a $3 million grant, |
[1739.42 --> 1744.62] lining up with their goals in the beginning might shift, um, some of the project direction a little bit. |
[1744.62 --> 1750.62] Mm-hmm. Um, so I've got four grants to dates, um, and working on a fifth, but I can't really, |
[1750.62 --> 1756.06] um, that one's not like done. So I can't really talk about that one. Um, not that I'm trying to |
[1756.06 --> 1762.06] be transparent or not that I'm, I want to be transparent as much as I can, but, um, I grant |
[1762.06 --> 1765.90] people like to wait until it's announced so that there can be like a PR thing. So I can't really |
[1766.54 --> 1770.14] announce that one. Cause you want to be open, but you also want to get down here, right? |
[1770.14 --> 1775.58] Exactly. Exactly. So I just want to be clear though, that I am very pro transparency. So if |
[1775.58 --> 1780.06] anybody listening, like has questions that I didn't cover, like, feel free to email me or DM me on |
[1780.06 --> 1785.58] Twitter and I'll like, you know, I can send you my budget and everything like that. So the four |
[1785.58 --> 1790.46] grants that I've got, um, the first one was the prototype and that was $50,000 and it was for me |
[1790.46 --> 1795.90] to work for six months on the prototype of debt. And I basically, the Knight Foundation said, Hey, |
[1795.90 --> 1799.34] you were working on this stuff at code for America. You never really continued working on it. |
[1799.90 --> 1805.26] Um, we have this new thing, the prototype grant. We are wondering if you're interested in, um, |
[1805.26 --> 1809.82] building a prototype of that stuff that you never got a chance to finish working on a code for America |
[1809.82 --> 1816.06] and just kind of see what happens. And so I was like, okay, awesome. That's like $50,000 to work on |
[1816.06 --> 1821.50] an open source project is pretty cool. So I did that and it was just me. And then, um, that was like in the |
[1821.50 --> 1828.06] summer of 2013, I think. And then I went to MozFest that winter and it was like at the tail ends. |
[1828.06 --> 1832.54] So I was like, okay, I'm about to have to go figure out what I'm going to do next. But then I met this |
[1832.54 --> 1838.54] funder from the Sloan Foundation, whose name is Josh Greenberg. And, um, Josh basically is the person |
[1838.54 --> 1844.62] who came up to me and said, Hey, have you thought about working on scientific stuff? Um, so, so far I'm |
[1844.62 --> 1849.26] like two for two. I had the foundations like come to me and find me and say, do you want to work on this |
[1849.26 --> 1853.66] stuff? Because I had, I mean, at that point I had invested years of unpaid open source work |
[1854.38 --> 1859.34] into the ecosystem or like a code for America. I actually took a pay cut to move to San Francisco. |
[1859.34 --> 1865.66] So, um, I mean, it doesn't really make a lot of sense financially up until this point. And it's |
[1865.66 --> 1869.98] still, I mean, I still, I would, I want to be clear. I could make like twice as much. I'm not being |
[1869.98 --> 1874.54] arrogant. I'm just, I can make twice or three times as much working at a startup than I do now. |
[1874.54 --> 1881.42] Um, but relative to nonprofits, I think I make more than average. So at first I was, |
[1881.42 --> 1887.26] I think 50 K for six months was about the same burn rate that I have now. So actually everybody |
[1887.26 --> 1893.26] on my team makes $96,000 a year because that's, um, $8,000 a month, which makes the, the grant |
[1893.26 --> 1898.62] forecasting really easy. Um, so all full-time employees right now, we, we all make $96,000 a |
[1898.62 --> 1903.58] year, which is if you talk to tech people, that's like really low. But if you talk to nonprofit people, |
[1904.30 --> 1908.30] it's, um, above average. So it's kind of like, we tried to strike a balance between |
[1908.94 --> 1914.30] not making tech people not want to have the jobs, but at the same time, like supporting people. |
[1915.18 --> 1923.26] So the first grant was six months. The second grant, I think it was $260,000 for a year. And so that was |
[1923.26 --> 1929.10] because I basically said, Hey, I don't want to work on this alone. I need, um, a team. And so |
[1929.10 --> 1934.86] then I was able to hire two people. So that was a huge moment for me was going from, um, and I remember |
[1934.86 --> 1940.54] I had discussions with, um, my partner, Jessica at the time. And I was like, well, I'm working on this |
[1940.54 --> 1945.10] thing alone and it kind of sucks. Cause I don't have any coworkers and I've been doing it for a while. |
[1945.10 --> 1950.78] And it would be awesome if I had, you know, people like teammates. And so I remember when I, |
[1951.58 --> 1957.42] when I got that first Sloan grant, it was huge because, um, now I could actually like start |
[1957.42 --> 1962.38] building a team up, then it would, the project went to three people. And so after a year, um, |
[1962.94 --> 1969.66] and so we got the Sloan grant and what happened was Josh said, um, I want to pay you so that you |
[1969.66 --> 1974.94] prioritize scientific use cases, because if we don't pay you, like he basically justified the |
[1974.94 --> 1981.90] grant as if he doesn't pay us, then we're going to go like find funding from other sources to focus |
[1981.90 --> 1987.26] on other problems. But he wanted to like prioritize us to work on his issue, which was, um, scientific |
[1987.26 --> 1994.06] reproducibility. So I haven't really said anything about that yet, but, um, the TLDR on that is, um, |
[1994.70 --> 1999.42] when scientists publish their work online, it's important that other scientists are able to access |
[1999.42 --> 2004.62] the paper that they wrote and also all the underlying data and code that they use to produce the papers. |
[2004.62 --> 2009.58] So that, um, like an actual collaborative process can occur or like a fact checking, um, |
[2010.22 --> 2014.86] peer review sort of process can occur. So essentially like all of the public money that |
[2014.86 --> 2019.50] gets poured into public research, it's important that all of those research outputs are saved forever |
[2020.14 --> 2025.10] so that, um, science can still happen in the future. But what happens today is that the data |
[2025.10 --> 2029.74] like never gets shared, or if it does get shared, the link breaks and then nobody can find the data |
[2029.74 --> 2033.90] set or the researcher moves to a different university. And it was like on a hard drive |
[2033.90 --> 2037.66] that nobody knows where it is anymore because the person's not working there anymore. So |
[2038.70 --> 2043.58] there's just a lack of good solutions in this space around ensuring that the data that underlies |
[2043.58 --> 2048.38] research is still available, um, or available at all in the first place. |
[2048.38 --> 2054.70] So that's like the mission of the Sloan foundation is, um, among other things, I think that there, |
[2054.70 --> 2059.50] you may have heard their slogan. If you listen to other podcasts there, let me try to channel it. |
[2059.50 --> 2064.30] It's like the Alfred P Sloan foundation supporting the furthering of science and technology in the |
[2064.30 --> 2066.86] modern world or whatever. So that they're like very science focused. |
[2066.86 --> 2069.82] Uh, now we're proper like NPR podcast. |
[2069.82 --> 2075.26] Yeah. Maybe they'll find this podcast now. Cause they'll be like, Hey, you said the thing now we'll |
[2075.26 --> 2080.70] give you money. Uh, so there's, I mean, they're very science focused and they are very clear about |
[2080.70 --> 2084.22] saying we want to prioritize you to work on science. And I actually thought that was cool |
[2084.22 --> 2090.46] because I think science is cool. So what happened was we had, uh, this, this like first one year grant |
[2090.46 --> 2095.74] that established the team. What we had to do was make a commitment to working with scientists. |
[2095.74 --> 2101.18] And, um, but it, it was basically like an R and D project because nobody knew what the |
[2101.74 --> 2106.22] like solutions were like there basically, they only knew what the problems were. The problem was that |
[2106.22 --> 2111.34] no data is getting shared. They don't know what the solution is though. So we were kind of in a unique |
[2111.34 --> 2115.74] position where we had to figure out what we were building. And the only way that I knew how to do that |
[2115.74 --> 2121.58] was by getting embedded into the problem. And so the way that we wrote that first grant was, |
[2121.58 --> 2128.62] um, let's partner like grant people always want you to have metrics so that they can measure |
[2128.62 --> 2132.86] if you're slacking off or not, or if you're, you know, at the end of it, they can evaluate |
[2132.86 --> 2136.86] because they write a lot of grants. They want to be able to evaluate grants using like high level |
[2136.86 --> 2143.26] metrics. And so our metrics were let's partner with a certain number of labs. That was like our main, |
[2143.26 --> 2148.62] um, requirement was that we made a commitment. Like they're going to pay us. We're going to get people |
[2148.62 --> 2153.10] to work with directly with a certain amount of scientific labs and really try to understand |
[2153.10 --> 2158.46] their process. And so, and then at the end of it, we'll try to produce, um, some software that |
[2158.46 --> 2163.98] is usable by these people in order to change their workflows, um, or encourage like better data sharing |
[2163.98 --> 2169.74] workflows. And so it's actually really fun because in the grant was like, okay, we'll do like four. |
[2169.74 --> 2175.26] I think we said we'll do four really in-depth, um, partnerships labs. And so we got to work with |
[2175.26 --> 2182.14] astrophysicists, with, um, DNA researchers, um, with social scientists. It was like super fun because |
[2182.14 --> 2188.14] I got to learn a lot and I got to really like challenge my notion of what data sharing was |
[2188.14 --> 2192.14] because I had stuff that worked for like city governments. But then when we went to work with |
[2192.14 --> 2197.18] scientists, they're like, well, my data is literally a million times bigger than that. Or, um, you know, |
[2197.18 --> 2200.78] I'm using this file format that no one else has ever heard of except the 19 people that |
[2200.78 --> 2206.70] like use this or whatever. And so it was like a lot of really good challenges. And so for me, |
[2206.70 --> 2211.42] that was what the grant, that was like why the grant existed was nobody was working on these problems |
[2211.42 --> 2217.02] because, um, in science you're not paid to write software. And that's one of the big issues. I mentioned |
[2217.02 --> 2221.90] incentives earlier. I think grants are a great way to create new incentives because you just pay people |
[2221.90 --> 2227.18] and that's a pretty good incentive in public institutions like science and government. There's |
[2227.18 --> 2233.82] often not great incentives, um, to do things. So for example, it doesn't further your career |
[2233.82 --> 2238.38] in science. Like you're not going to, um, get a faculty position by writing open source. |
[2239.02 --> 2244.46] Um, you get a faculty position by getting published in a prestigious journal by writing open source. |
[2244.46 --> 2250.78] Like there's no prestigious journal that publishes open source. So that doesn't help you. So as a result, |
[2250.78 --> 2254.70] they never do it because it doesn't help. Right. But there is a fair amount of prestige, |
[2254.70 --> 2259.34] right. For developers to take on really hard problems. Like, like, I liked that aspect where |
[2259.34 --> 2263.82] he was saying, I want to pay you to do this so that like good people are focusing on hard problems. |
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