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[3866.86 --> 3870.46] that what they've done is they've like a lot of grant people have been funding technology |
[3871.02 --> 3875.58] over the last 10, 15 years. And they've seen, they're starting to understand how |
[3876.14 --> 3880.30] funding technology works, which is things like, um, like they have a lot of technical debt. |
[3880.30 --> 3883.34] They have a lot of projects that have horrible project management, or they have, |
[3883.82 --> 3887.18] like people will say in the grant, like, oh yeah, we're going to make awesome reusable software. |
[3887.18 --> 3891.98] And then they make software that's very difficult to reuse. Um, these are all just like inherent to |
[3891.98 --> 3896.70] software in general, like anybody that works on software will like tell you that it's, |
[3896.70 --> 3901.10] it's really easy to have a lot of technical debt and make a giant app that is really inflexible. |
[3901.66 --> 3906.38] So if you can make a pitch, you still have to make your pitch be about a social cause, |
[3906.38 --> 3912.22] but I think if you can make it, um, if you can say like, by the way, we're like, we're doing it as |
[3912.22 --> 3916.14] open source and we actually want to invest in building up this ecosystem around this problem, |
[3916.14 --> 3920.70] that that's actually an advantage to you. But I don't think open source is like the reason you get |
[3920.70 --> 3924.14] the grant. It's just like a thing that helps. The reason you get the grant is that |
[3924.86 --> 3926.86] you're committing to like a cause that they care about. |
[3926.86 --> 3930.70] Well, and just like you were saying earlier, right? Like grants want to be tied to the social |
[3930.70 --> 3935.90] cause, right? Like they want, so, you know, how do we, and it's not that programmers don't care |
[3935.90 --> 3939.74] about social causes. I mean, if they, if they didn't, you wouldn't be able to get such great |
[3939.74 --> 3944.70] people working on them. Um, it's really just that, you know, getting them to speak in that language, |
[3944.70 --> 3947.90] um, and getting them to be on the page, the same page as the grant writer is. Right. |
[3947.90 --> 3949.34] Yeah. Yeah, definitely. |
[3949.34 --> 3953.50] In an ideal world, how do you picture that people would be able to work on |
[3954.06 --> 3958.38] open source? How could that be like, because right now, I mean, there's so many different |
[3958.38 --> 3963.50] grants that are, I think there's still sort of ad hoc opportunities. Um, but if you were to think |
[3963.50 --> 3967.50] about this on an institutional level, how could that actually be supported and funded? |
[3967.50 --> 3973.58] Um, so that is a awesome question. One way that I would answer it is procurement reform in |
[3973.58 --> 3978.38] government, which is like the most boring phrase that you could possibly say. But, um, |
[3979.42 --> 3984.22] like think about the amount of money that is spent on software and government. Well, I mean, |
[3984.22 --> 3988.46] most people probably don't know, but there's like, uh, an average project in the federal government |
[3988.46 --> 3992.54] for like, like there was a, actually, this isn't even a federal government. This is the city of New York. |
[3992.54 --> 4001.18] They spent $600 million, two thirds of an Instagram on, uh, a time tracking app for |
[4001.18 --> 4007.66] employees and it never ships. Right. Right. And one of the reasons, right. Is that how much does it |
[4007.66 --> 4013.02] cost to apply to get that money? Right. Yeah. Because you have to like, have invested |
[4013.02 --> 4018.14] dozens of years into the nepotistic system of existing government procurement. And so it's like, |
[4018.78 --> 4023.82] it's not a technical problem to fix procurement, but if somebody fixes procurement, and by the way, |
[4023.82 --> 4028.62] it is being worked on now because, um, like I mentioned this earlier, but healthcare.gov was so bad |
[4029.26 --> 4035.18] that, um, the silver lining around that, that's actually pretty exciting is that there's, um, two new |
[4035.18 --> 4040.38] organizations in the federal government that are hiring remote and they're hiring, um, technologists and |
[4040.38 --> 4046.78] they're paying people to work on open source inside of government. Um, one is called the us digital |
[4046.78 --> 4055.18] service and the other is called 18 F, uh, or one eight F and they're sort of like a brother, |
[4055.18 --> 4061.66] sister organization. So one is inside the executive branch and they're like the technology advocates. |
[4061.66 --> 4067.02] They're almost like, um, the role that like the EFF plays where they, they have people come up with, um, |
[4067.02 --> 4071.98] policies and they get the different agencies to adopt policies and they go, like, I have a friend |
[4071.98 --> 4077.66] that works there. He gets to go into like the VA or like the social security office. And they're like, |
[4077.66 --> 4082.30] Hey, check out this new a hundred million dollar, like database that we contracted. What do you think? |
[4082.30 --> 4086.62] And he's like, um, if I was like, he used to build data centers at Twitter and he was like, |
[4086.62 --> 4091.50] if I was building this, I could have done it for $5 million and saved you $95 million. Like, |
[4091.50 --> 4094.78] why did you build this for a hundred million dollars? And they're like, that's what the vendor told us. |
[4094.78 --> 4101.10] Um, like Oracle said, this was a great deal or whatever. And so that is a really important |
[4101.10 --> 4105.58] cause right now that actually has a fair amount of momentum. Um, 18 F is where you go to work. If |
[4105.58 --> 4110.38] you actually want to build the, the solutions, they're like, like an actual contractor, um, |
[4110.38 --> 4115.18] that is government employees that, um, like hires people to work on the actual projects. |
[4115.74 --> 4122.30] And a, uh, USDS is kind of like where you go to set the policy. So for instance, they are doing a |
[4122.30 --> 4128.22] lot of stuff around making all federal websites have mandatory SSL. Um, so that the NSA can't |
[4128.22 --> 4133.34] snoop on what you're browsing, for example. So there's like a lot of really cool momentum in |
[4133.34 --> 4138.94] fixing that system. And so if I was going to place a bet on where all the grants are going to be in |
[4138.94 --> 4143.82] the future, it's around like delivering government services in a more efficient way and actually |
[4143.82 --> 4147.58] competing for government grants, because that landscape is about to get a lot more accessible |
[4147.58 --> 4150.54] to open source stuff because of all the work that's happening at the federal level. |
[4151.26 --> 4157.90] Um, and another way I would answer that is this question is, um, like procurement reform is the |
[4157.90 --> 4163.58] first thing when that's happening. So like, keep an eye on that space. The other thing is, um, like I |
[4163.58 --> 4167.58] mentioned, like, we don't know how to describe our project in terms of like, are we a nonprofit? Are we, |
[4167.58 --> 4171.90] uh, academic project? Like we don't really know what our label is. And we're trying to figure out |
[4171.90 --> 4177.34] with some other groups, a model for supporting projects in this ecosystem. And, um, so a great |
[4177.34 --> 4181.58] example to look at, I think they're doing some great work is, um, if you look up this thing called |
[4181.58 --> 4188.22] the substance consortium, there's this awesome text editor. It's like a JavaScript, um, like rich text |
[4188.22 --> 4193.26] editor and editing environment called substance. It's like really beautifully designed and it's all |
[4193.26 --> 4199.42] open source. And, uh, they had been working for this open access scientific journal, writing a journal |
[4199.42 --> 4205.90] article viewer and editor. And, um, they had all these other organizations, like they were basically |
[4205.90 --> 4211.74] being contracted by this one journal, um, called eLife. And they built this thing called eLife lens, |
[4211.74 --> 4216.38] which is like a really beautiful, um, way to read papers. Cause most people read papers on PDF, |
[4217.10 --> 4222.14] but, um, trying to read a paper on your phone or whatever on a PDF, it has like super wide columns. |
[4222.14 --> 4227.34] And it's like, why can't I just have this be a webpage? So they're trying to fix some of these |
[4227.34 --> 4232.46] problems. Um, and, but they had all these other organizations in the space that were like, well, |
[4232.46 --> 4239.26] we also want to like invest together in better editing tools for science, um, or just editing tools |
[4239.26 --> 4247.10] for the web in general. And so, um, they set up this thing called the, uh, the substance consortium, |
[4247.10 --> 4252.62] which is like, there's four stakeholders that all, um, help pay for the development of substance, |
[4252.62 --> 4257.98] but they're not like exclusively hiring the substance team, um, to work as like employees |
[4257.98 --> 4262.94] of their projects. And so what's really cool about it is substance itself can still be a standalone |
[4262.94 --> 4269.02] project that can make like reusable open source tools. Um, but it has like an open governance |
[4269.02 --> 4272.94] structure so that any of like the member organizations can help influence the project |
[4272.94 --> 4277.10] direction in a positive way and like work together to support the project without, um, |
[4277.10 --> 4281.42] controlling the project. So their whole thing is like cooperation without control. And, um, |
[4281.42 --> 4286.30] that work is being facilitated by a group called the collaborative knowledge foundation, |
[4287.02 --> 4291.74] which is one of the stakeholders, um, or one of the people paying the substance team. |
[4291.74 --> 4296.46] And so for example, substance is just like the components, like the editor components. |
[4297.18 --> 4301.58] Um, but the substance team doesn't have like, they're just two people. They don't have, uh, |
[4302.22 --> 4307.66] the, the linkage to like the social issue, or they don't have the grant writing capability. |
[4307.66 --> 4312.62] Um, at this point, they want to get to that point, but they need like incubating and they need support |
[4312.62 --> 4317.58] for their project. Um, collaborative knowledge foundation is a couple of folks that started it |
[4317.58 --> 4322.94] that are really focused on fixing the scientific publishing ecosystem. Like they want every journal |
[4322.94 --> 4327.02] to be using open source publishing tools. So they have the social mission. Like that's a huge social |
[4327.02 --> 4334.62] mission. Access to, um, research is like a really big cause right now. Um, and so what's cool is that |
[4334.62 --> 4340.06] the collaborative knowledge foundation has got some grants to work on fixing scientific publishing. |
[4340.62 --> 4344.46] And instead of like hiring the substance people as employees, they're just like, let's support |
[4345.26 --> 4350.70] like everyone in this ecosystem together and have substance still be standalone because they think |
[4350.70 --> 4354.78] it would be toxic if they actually like exclusively hired the substance people that work on their one |
[4354.78 --> 4359.34] thing. They would rather have substance like flourish and have a whole ecosystem because I mean, |
[4359.34 --> 4362.70] that's where open source works really well is when you have a bunch of interests that are |
[4362.70 --> 4369.02] supporting like a factored out common infrastructure. Um, so I think that the substance |
[4369.02 --> 4373.50] consortium model is really exciting and we're trying to figure out how to, um, we need to come up with a |
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