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N | 4 | 3 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | ... possible, again, for the lawyers to...and they can change it anytime? [crosstalk 00:02:36] | [
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U | 5 | 4 | 4 | 1,610 | Male | Train | so a quick round of applause for [crosstalk 00:03:38]. | [
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H | 4 | 4 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | hello, and welcome to the techdirt podcast. i'm mike masnick. | [
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N | 4 | 4 | 4.8 | 480 | Male | Train | ... because we often feel that lawmakers don't fully understand privacy itself and what it means and all the trade offs involved. and so almost all of the attempts that we've seen... | [
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H | 5 | 5 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | ... useful data, it makes it that much harder for accused criminals to prove their side of the case. this whole area of study was kind of new and fascinating to me, so... | [
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H | 3 | 3 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | ... have invited rebecca onto the podcast to talk about it. so welcome to the podcast.thank you so much. that was a great explanation of the issue. i'm thrilled to be here. | [
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H | 5 | 6 | 5 | 480 | Male | Train | well, all right, there we go. if we have a great explanation, we can just stop.two minutes in.so let's start... | [
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N | 4 | 3 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | ... with the basics. can you explain sort of what's happening? you had told me about this, and i thought it was really interesting. i thought it was worth discussing on the podcast. give a... | [
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N | 4 | 4 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | ... basic description for our listeners of what this problem is and where you've seen it.sure. so, there's a troubling pattern. it's appears in past privacy laws. it... | [
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N | 3 | 4 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | ... deliberation.and, i mean, yeah, because i think.... i mean, one of the things that happens whenever you have these kinds... | [
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H | 4 | 4 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | ... kinds of laws is that there are competing interests. there are a ton of competing interests, more than more than i think anyone can possibly think about at any one... | [
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C | 4 | 1 | 6 | 480 | Male | Train | ... time.sure.but law enforcement constantly wants more access to things, and we've discussed that in lots of different contexts, while the whole point of privacy laws is to protect data. and sometimes... | [
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H | 4 | 3 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | ... it's to protect data from the government in some cases. and in a lot of cases, it's to protect the data from the way companies might use it. so... | [
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N | 3 | 3 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | so can you give an example of where this is actually playing out, where there's a sort of imbalance?sure. yeah. so one of the most prominent examples and the reason... | [
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X | 4.4 | 3.2 | 4.6 | 1,610 | Male | Train | but it doesn't address this issue, because we have an adversarial criminal justice system in the- | [
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N | 4 | 4.8 | 3.2 | 480 | Male | Train | for example, i mean, some of the things that you've talked about are where a defense team might subpoena, say twitter or facebook to try and get access to certain... | [
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X | 5 | 5 | 5 | 480 | Male | Train | ... communications that that might provide evidence that shows the innocence of a defense client. and those companies are refusing to hand it over, which by law, they're... | [
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A | 6.5 | 1.5 | 6.5 | 480 | Male | Train | ... not supposed to hand over those communications because of the stored communications act.yes. footnote, if i can, so one of the cases i've been really interested in... | [
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X | 4 | 4 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | ... for the defense side, and so... | [
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X | 4 | 4 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | yeah. and i mean, it should be no, i mean, you mentioned it earlier, but i just want to repeat the fact that the historic communications act and which was a- | [
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H | 5 | 4 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | part of ecpa, the electronic communications privacy act, i think, is what it stands for. those were passed in 1986 and our in many ways, woeful- | [
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S | 3 | 5 | 5 | 480 | Male | Train | outdated. i mean, think about the world in 1986 versus the world today and how those laws were written and what they were thinking about. and there have been efforts for- | [
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H | 3 | 4 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | very strange.yeah. yeah. it's it is interesting, though. of course, there's always going to be some sort of judgment call then, right? if you were to say that the- | [
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N | 3 | 4 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | there different, but i guess that gets to almost everything here, right? you have a judgment call over what should be absolutely protected and what should not be.yeah. and- | [
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N | 3 | 4 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | yeah. yeah, no, it's really interesting. as i said, i mean, when you brought it up to me originally, i was just like, oh yeah. i mean, there was an angle i hadn't even- | [
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N | 4 | 4 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | considered. and i'm sure that's the case with everyone who is supporting or pushing these laws. it's just there are so many different areas- | [
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X | 4 | 5 | 5 | 480 | Male | Train | that privacy touches on. and this is one that probably is not top of mind to almost anyone.totally. and yet there's a really easy fix for it. so we do- | [
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H | 4 | 3 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | fix this? and so is that the answer that you want, the language to be sort of symmetrical in some form?yeah. that's one answer. lawmakers who are drafting these bills that- | [
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U | 6 | 6 | 7 | 480 | Male | Train | in january and has all sorts of other issues. but, this is interesting. so it just has sort of a blanket exception- | [
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N | 4 | 3 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | state laws that are currently being debated and obviously a few different federal bills. and so do most of them have the same- | [
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N | 3 | 3 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | not well reasoned or thought through.yeah. is it, i mean, is it that law enforcement [inaudible 00:06:14]. i know that whenever politicians are pushing for these kinds of- | [
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N | 3 | 3 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | privacy bills that usually law enforcement does raise concerns about what it would mean for their investigatory powers. but do you think that they're sort of- | [
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X | 3 | 3 | 5 | 480 | Male | Train | first place.right. and so, i mean, at this point, do you think that issue is basically just one of getting the idea out there? | [
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X | 5.5 | 6 | 4.5 | 480 | Male | Train | i mean, i know you're working on this law review article and you're here on the podcast talking about it. is it just one of knowledge that- | [
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N | 4 | 4 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | yeah. it's interesting. i mean, as i said, it was just one of those things that i had never thought about. and so it was sort of interesting to think through these issues- | [
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H | 3 | 3 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | right. i'm still thinking about this. i recently wrote a story, not in the criminal context, but in the civil... | [
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X | 4 | 3 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | ... context and i'm not going to go into all the background here. it was a really complex and weird case, but where it appeared that a lawyer was... | [
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N | 4 | 3.4 | 3.4 | 1,608 | Female | Train | using civil subpoena, and the civil case was using subpoenas to- | [
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U | 7 | 6 | 5 | 480 | Male | Train | ... the lawyer in this case appeared to not want to tip off the people that he was trying to get their information from, because it was completely unrelated case. | [
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H | 6 | 4 | 5 | 480 | Male | Train | i mean, it seemed like an abuse of the subpoena power.i'm so glad you brought that up, and i'd love to read your work on that case. just a flag... | [
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H | 4 | 3 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | first up, i want to say that things have been little bit busier than usual, meaning that- | [
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H | 3 | 4 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | ... we skipped a few weeks of podcast in november, and actually, are likely to do so again in december. | [
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H | 3 | 4 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | but hopefully, we'll get back on a more regular schedule in the new year, so- | [
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X | 3 | 5 | 5 | 480 | Male | Train | ... so go back and take a listen, and we'll have more episodes. i think we'll... | [
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N | 3 | 4 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | ... on the podcast, we have a return guest, kashmir. | [
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H | 3 | 3 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | and so, just as background for people who, like me, didn't even realize these companies exist, what exactly do- | [
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H | 5 | 6 | 7 | 480 | Male | Train | yeah.wow. that'd be interesting. i- | [
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H | 4 | 4 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | ... it gives me this idea that the whole dialing a 1-800 number and seeing if you can actually get to a human, and how important they think your call is, you- | [
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S | 3 | 4 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | ... could almost see a world in which, if you could find out the people with the good scores- | [
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U | 5.555556 | 6 | 4.555556 | 480 | Male | Train | ... and you could spoof their phone numbers just to get- | [
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U | 7 | 5 | 5 | 480 | Male | Train | ... this is, but just to actually get a human being on the line. | [
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U | 7 | 5 | 5 | 480 | Male | Train | yeah, to see how the other half lives. | [
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H | 4 | 4 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | well, that's interesting. and so, what did you find out when you... because you approached a bunch of these companies under these- | [
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H | 3 | 3 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | ... data protection laws, whatever you want to call them, and tried to get your da- | [
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N | 4 | 4 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | ... and so, what was in? i mean, 400 pages- | [
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N | 3 | 4 | 4 | 480 | Male | Train | i was wondering about that because to me that's- | [
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N | 3 | 4 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | what they have is eye opening, but i'm- | [
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H | 5 | 6 | 5 | 480 | Male | Train | intrigued by what my actual scores would be. | [
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N | 3 | 3 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | was there anything in there that surprised you, or is there anything that- | [
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S | 3 | 3 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | indicated that something you had done legitimately was deemed questionable? | [
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N | 3 | 4 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | interesting to me. you mentioned that you didn't have any idea that anyone else would see these messages and- | [
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H | 3 | 4 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | when you sign up for one of these services- | [
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N | 4 | 3 | 3 | 480 | Male | Train | you don't realize that they're passing this data onto these other companies, which is. | [
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... |
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