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interesting, because i knew-
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-and i remember when they had first launched, they had actually reached out to me just to talk about-
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-about comments because we had, you know, techdirt had been a pretty long running blog-
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-at that point and had a pretty active comment space. and so i had just had a discussion-
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-with them not to use them because we were perfectly happy with our own setup.
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certainly didn't realize that they'd been sold to this other company, which is-i guess-
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yeah. we do not pass on our comments-
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-information to anyone, so... wow.
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i'm fascinated by this whole sort of hidden-
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-hidden economy of data. it's really-
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-really interesting. and i can't decide, there is this element of it that creeps me out a little bit-
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-which i think a lot of people feel and certainly seemed to be a lot of the reaction i saw to your article.
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but then there's also a part of me that's like, it's really interesting and sort of the neat ways in which that information is used. i mean, i think the sort of-
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-fraud scoring stuff is really interesting, but still-
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-again, concerned about the black box nature of it. so yeah, this whole-
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-space is really interesting.
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yeah. i mean, can you imagine not being able-
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-to reach a human being on a 1-800 line because of a comment you wrote 10 years ago. it's-
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yeah, i mean, my mind was going to, you could totally turn this into a science fiction story very, very quickly and it could get pretty dark.
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it's incredible. i mean, it's really interesting-
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-and i know you said you're working on a follow-up and is there anything you can tell us about the follow-up or do we need to wait?well-
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interesting element in its own way, because the-
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-identity verification part is a big deal because otherwise anyone else could go in and get all of your data.
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and so, we've reported a few times-exactly.-on how some of these privacy laws are actually opening up a new sort of attack vector on your privacy.
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can adequately impersonate you in terms of-
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-the request for data, they can get access to a huge amount of data and there have been a few stories of that happening.right.and-
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i mean, we joke, but obviously there could be a lot more sensitive information in there or even some of-definitely.-that information that might not seem or may feel sort of innocuous-
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-problematic. i mean, you could definitely see in cases where people are trying to do like spearfishing stuff-
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-where if they have enough information about you and your habits and things that you've done, they could-
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-whether it's impersonating somebody from airbnb to try and get something else from you or-
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yeah, yeah. as opposed to these smaller companies that nobody's ever heard of.
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yeah. so, i mean, i'm-
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-somewhat fascinated by that aspect as well and sort of how it-
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-these new privacy laws while in some sense giving more-
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-also opening up new, potentially privacy violating vectors as well.
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you will have plenty to report about for however long you choose to stay on this beat.endless.
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no, this is really fascinating. the article's really fascinating.
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i'm excited to see the follow-up and certainly any other reporting you do on the subject. it's a really-
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-interesting topic that is both scary and eye-opening at the same time. and so-
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-really great work. and i appreciate all the-
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-the stories that you find and work on are-
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-some of the most-
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-most worthwhile and interesting stories around privacy and related subjects.
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so, i really appreciate that, and i appreciate you taking the time to come on the podcast.
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it was my pleasure.and also appreciate every-
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one listening. so, thank you for listening.
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not next week, but hopefully soon after, and by january, should hopefully be back on a regular-
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schedule, but thanks for listening either way and-
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hello, and welcome to the techdirt podcast. i'm mike masnick. before we get started with the show, i wanted to quickly remind people about our new anthology of speculative fiction about the-
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future work called working features. we talked with some of the authors recently on the podcast, but i wanted to remind listeners in case they hadn't yet checked out the book.
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we've got 14 amazing stories in the collection. they're just really great. and we've been getting some great reviews on them with people saying that the stories have really-
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made them think about different things and about what the future might be like. we're really, really happy and proud of the stories in the book-
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to the left. you'll get to the webpage and check it out or just find it on amazon. it's easy enough. and we know that you'll enjoy it.
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[inaudible 00:01:39]
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we haven't done this sort of self promotion in a little bit, but if you like the podcast, please share it with your friends. i keep hearing from people-
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subscribe and blah, blah, blah, whatever to the podcast. and we tend not to say that. so if you like this-
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podcast, rate or review or whatever it is that you can do to help promote it, you can just tell people about it. that's cool with us. we would certainly appreciate that-
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and if you really, really like it, which hopefully you do subscribe to our patreon feed, we have never had a single ad in the show. we've been doing it for many years-
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so patreon is really the only thing that supports the podcast and also it helps support techdirt in general. so we always appreciate that as well. anyway, with-
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for years, going back to craigslist, we pointed out that if people were actually concerned about sex trafficking, these sites were actually kind of great for law enforcement. they made it much easier to actually fi-
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find and arrest anyone who is actually involved in sex trafficking, they cooperated with law enforcement and helped them find people. however, as the attacks on backpage ramped up, every-
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one kept insisting that the site itself was aiding sex trafficking rather than helping to stop it. eventually, the senate came out with a huge report-
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after a long investigation that insisted that backpage was actively promoting sex trafficking in a variety of different ways. and then this was partly used-
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to pass fosta, a law that we've talked about a few times in the past. with all of the backers of the law insisting that it was necessary to take down backpage. and they-
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named backpage in particular quite a few times, of course, as we've detailed, also the feds actually shut down backpage and arrested its founders before fosta even became law though, only by a few-
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days. though, some of the supporters of fosta have now tried to rewrite history and pretend that fosta helped take the site down. elizabeth nolan brown who's an-
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associate editor at reason magazine has been covering the backpage story very in-depthly for quite some time. and recently got access to some fairly stunning doc-
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documents from federal investigators, noting repeatedly that they had no case against backpage in part because the site and its executives had bent over backwards to help combat sex trafficking on the site,
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including working very closely with law enforcement. elizabeth, welcome to the podcast.hi, thanks for having me on.so we want to talk about this and what-
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you found and what's happened with backpage. before we get to those documents, can we talk a little bit about the senate report? because i think that really shifted,
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some of the debate and plays into what you found in your article. so what was in that senate report and what did it say?yeah, the senate report, which-
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with the backpage process.you know, it's funny, and we'll get back into the details here, but it reminds me of, there are a few other-
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situations that i think are a little bit similar, and one of them that always amazed me and i thought never got enough attention when it happened was,
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when it came to the whole file sharing debate, and all the early programs that were used for file sharing. one of the reasons why napster got-
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shut down, one of the specific things that the court called out, was the fact that it had a search engine. and therefore, it was enabling the search to help f-
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find the infringing files. and that was like a-right.key part of the evidence. then, later on, when they went after another platform and-
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because they all start to blend together, i think it was the case against megaupload, part of the evidence used is that they don't have a search engine.
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and that therefore, they were trying to hide the illegal activity so that, it was the same sort of thing. you were damned if you do damned if you don't,yeah.no matter what you-
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illegality the way common sense points otherwise.and if i remember correctly, that was the same thing with craigslist, right? i mean the-oh, yeah, yeah.craigslist instituted fees on adult-
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ads because they didn't have these on adult ads-right.originally. on craigslist most of the ads are free. and because of the attorneys general pressuring them, they-
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instituted credit card charging to try and be able to track,right.and monitor those ads. and then the attorneys, the same attorneys general, spun around and said, oh-
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-how these documents got out there, before we talk about what's in them because that's an interesting story in its own right?sure, yeah.
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right. do you know why the government should not have handed those documents over? maybe i don't know enough about-
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-how the rules of evidence work in a case like this, but it seems like the kind of thing that should be handed over during discovery, but maybe-
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-you got your hands on the documents-yes.-as well. and along with our article, we published the documents. so, they're up on reason.com. anybody wants to look at them, you can-
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these seem to suggest that the company actually is a good actor.yes. and some of the exact sort of-
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-what's interesting too is that the senate report covers the same exact time period, effectively, as these memos do, right?yes, mostly. there is a little bit of subsequent stuff-
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-can talk about how it's possible to spin anything against someone, but-
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which is really horrifying in so many ways. that's very, very bothersome. and-
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-the thing that, that i had been pointing out from way back when with craigslist and stuff is, we had all these examples of-
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-police have said that it's much, much harder for them to now track down traffickers. and so, there's something of a potentially open question-
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-to whether or not that means trafficking has actually gone down, which doesn't appear to be the case, or because now police just can't find it anymore.yeah, because-
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"... you stop trafficking, as the traffickers."right. yeah, yeah. no, no, i saw that too, and it is pretty incredible where it's like-
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... those sites are... they're accusing a certain guy of running them, and he's not based in the u.s., and the sites seem to be registered-
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... in all sorts of other countries, and they're complaining about how they won't cooperate at all. it's like, "well, yeah, right. you had the one who was cooperating, and you're trying to put him in jail."
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and related to that, one of the things, and this came out a little bit in the wired article, and i think a little bit-
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... seemed like some of the focus changed when backpage pushed back on that point. is that what you found? or-yeah, def-
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another topic that we talk about all the time, and i know that you've done a lot of writing and speaking on as well, which is the whole section two-
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... 30 debate, right?yes.the whole point of section 230 is to deal with these situations and to say, no platform is going-
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... to be able to know whether or not every post on their side, if it's an open platform for people to use, whether or not any of those break the law.
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