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and that gets exactly to the description that you just gave, of a whole bunch of the classified ads on backpage were clearly leaked-
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... go on. it's not easy, in fact, it's effectively impossible to tell just by looking at most of them, whether or not they're advertising illegal activity, or perfectly legal activity.
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and so, that was the exact kind of thing that section 230 was put in place for, because they said you can't put liability on the platform, when it literally has-
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... no way of determining whether or not what is being advertised is legal or not. instead, you should move that burden to the people who are actually engaged in the illegal or legal-
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... this reason to attack section 230.yeah. so yeah, two points on that, is that-
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230.yeah, no, i think that was evidence. and certainly, and we had written a little bit about this, was that-
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... behind the scenes, there was lobbying on this done by some of the entertainment industry's largest lobbyists, who really-
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... saw this very much as like, "oh, hey, here's a chance to attack section 230, which they incorrectly and somewhat bizarrely blame for why the internet companies are so successful-
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... and that it's changed their own business models, even though in a lot of cases, it's helped them. but that's a whole other podcast for another time.yeah, you also said-
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... this year now, so.yeah, yeah. no, and that's actually a big deal. and we actually spoke about it on another podcast recently, where it was like this whole idea of-
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... because right after fosta passed, a bunch of dating sites actually did shut down, because they were afraid that they might be violating the law. and then for facebook, which did support-
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... the law, to then launch a dating site, just it...yeah. it's so-
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brazen.yeah, yeah. i mean, i want to believe that this was not a calculated move, but even just the appearance of it-
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..because...the wire article.yeah. the wire article's really fantastic as well. and a lot of people...
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..really sort of wrote off the backpage case. i mean, i heard directly in the lead up to fosta and even before the backpage was taken down and the execs were arrested...
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..so there was the earlier time where kamala harris...yeah.and...
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..and i forget who else, i think paxton from texas teamed up to arrest them. and that didn't work so well, but in the lead up a lot of people...
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..in the tech industry, i heard people who were sort of section 230 supporters who effectively were sort of throwing backpage under the bus.yeah.and were like, "they're bad actors..."
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..we're fine with them being shut down and were really focused on buying into the narrative that they're bad actors...
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..yes, i agree that it was very short-sighted; i thought it was short-sighted at the time. but i can see that they had this feeling of, and i've heard this directly...
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..from some people even, that basically the government was going to do something and we had to offer up something. and this seemed like the..
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..most reasonable thing to sort of offer up as a sacrificial lamb. they're not too disturbed by it. the narrative can be spun...
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..the argument was basically if we sort of didn't turn around and turn on backpage, then it would've been even worse though...
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..about quite a bit, right? there's the seizure, right? so they're running effectively two different lawsuits at the same time, right? because there's one about the seizing...
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..and forfeiture of all their stuff and then the separate sort of criminal prosecution. and if i remember correctly and i could be wrong, so i apologize...
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..the seizure and forfeiture case is not even in arizona, right? that's somewhere else?yeah. it's in california. and so when they've been trying to challenge these...
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..right, because i mean that is what the...
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..yeah, this touches on all sorts of topics that both of our sites cover all the time.i just got to say too, i love...
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..it is kind of funny. i certainly appreciate the work that you guys do and the willingness to point out these...
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..the script sort of got flipped against backpage and i had even written that when i saw the sun...
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..report, i remember going through it and basically saying, "each of these things could be presented in a light that shows that it was an attempt to stop sex..."
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..and just the general challenges of content moderation and...right.what are you supposed to do in that case, right?right. and yeah, this is...
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..the fact that that how much sort of experimentation they went through, that seemed to be very clearly designed to be like, "well, we don't want sex trafficking..."
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..we should try and stop it and help prevent it. but in order to do that, they had to experiment. and yet to have that be spun...
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and the way it's been spun seems really, really troubling.yeah.
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anyways, this is all really fascinating. the case is still going on, as you said. there's a bunch of different elements happening and the actual trial's not scheduled until sometime next-
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... for taking the time, as well. and we'll be back next week.(singing)
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a whole setup of due process and the judicial system for the most part with a few exceptions is fairly transparent. and as i noted in that conversation, there are.
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-both significant pros and cons to such a model.while it does provide pretty clear due process and a fair bit of transparency, it's also incredibly slow and-
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-ridiculously expensive, not to mention quite frequently, very, very confusing. the fact that you have to hire lawyers to go through that process for the most part-
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that facebook was more important than the actual supreme court and that he was trying to create an entirely separate judicial system from the existing one, rather-
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-than recognizing what was truly interesting about the idea, at least in my mind, which is that this was a company thinking about literally handing over important decisions to an out-
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.. supreme court.yeah. i think that they would love it if everyone stopped calling it that.i'm sure.yeah. they've i think that the name was-
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... last week. i think on tuesday they put out the announcement of the official charter and the scope and scale of what it's going to look at. and it's a really interesting-
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listeners, what did you do in terms of being engaged? you knew some of what was going on in this process.
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... process, right?yeah. so i think my past work and the paper, the new governors, and writing about platforms and online speech, and how they-
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... had a private system of governance had kind of pointed me in this area, especially doing kind of an empirical look at what they're actually doing instead of just kind of armchair theorizing.right.
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and so when they said that they were going to do this oversight board, which is something that a lot of people for years and years have talked about something like this being necessary-
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... i was really going to cover it from the outside no matter what. and then i ended up getting independent funding so that i could basically-
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Train
... with their permission embed at facebook to follow the team that was being charged with coming up and planning all of this.
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and part of the deal was that there was no nda and that i could tape all my conversations.all right. cool.so it really was a very-
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and what they should do, what it should be.right. okay. and so, so the basics of the board, right, is that in some cases, there will be certain content moderation decisions that-
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yeah. so, there's basically they're starting out with a really narrow, i would call it subject matter jurisdiction or scope of their-
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Train
so to use facebook lingo, because i actually think it's pretty helpful to understand how they're thinking about this, it used to be, ironically, that you-
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... the only thing you could appeal was the take down of a page or a take down of an account or your profile. that was like if you had been banned.
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A
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5.833333
1,373
Female
Train
... letting you review or what they call simple objects, which are just photos or text or videos that you post. so things-
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A
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... that are quote, unquote, complex objects, like account pages or group pages or your personal profile, are not eligible for review.oh, interesting.yeah. and so that's actually...yeah, it is really interesting-
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N
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... because that's also part of the problem with de platforming and some of the bigger questions that we ask about free speech online. and so those will-
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Train
i think that they've said that they hope they turn into the purview of the board, but they're not going to be there at the offset and neither will ads. and so-
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A
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... will some things. so let's say i post a picture of something, it gets taken down. i appeal all the way through facebook. then i appeal through tool to the board. the board selects it-
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... as a case select. it's a case that's selected, they issue an opinion on it and if they say put it back up facebook has to do that.
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X
3.833333
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and that's the extent of their binding decisions. it's for that one particular piece of content.okay.yeah. then they can issue a policy recommend-
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A
6.4
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it's like, at least on certain types of content, they'll all be going into a very public database that'll show us the facts and the rules that are getting-
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H
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... to that.right.and then we'll have a way to measure whether or not there's-
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N
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-discussions, which is that, and this is something that i struggle with too, because i do think transparency and due process are really good things, but i also recognize like when it comes to content moderation, part of the issue with-
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-and i think it'll be interesting to see, how this operates, because there are many examples of existing content moderation decisions where we see people who sort of try to build a false-
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-equivalency and say that content got banned but this content, which i claim is exactly the same, even though there's very different reasons-
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X
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Train
-behind it. there's other context or something along those lines. that's the exact same content and you're treating this kind unfairly.so i do wonder-
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-how much we're going to see that sort of reaction where people are going to use this as examples that they claim will prove bias rather than otherwise.oh yeah.
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N
4
3.4
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so one of the questions that i've gotten pretty consistently from reporters in the last week has been is this a reaction to the-
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S
1.8
2.8
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Train
... conservative bias allegations against.right.and i was like, no. i mean, anyone who's ever made that type of-
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H
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anyone who's ever going to make that type of claim i don't think is going to be thwarted by the existence of the board because they'll just say that-
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H
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... the board is biased or was bought for by facebook or whatever.right, right.and there's no point. there's no point at which this starts to have-
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H
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... becoming like a lightning rod for the black lives matter movement. and then you have something like robert goodwin sr., who is the man who was shot in cleveland at point blank range.right.and-
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N
3.2
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Train
... someone watching those videos in the middle, it just looks like two black men who were shot in america and one was a brutal-
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N
3.4
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... brutal murder.right.that was used to kind of aggrandized the murderer, the killer, and that's why it was posted on facebook. and the other-
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N
3
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... the opposite of what this is supposed to do, i think, is to kind of like-
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N
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3.2
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... let us zoom in, but how they are going to do that at scale and in 90 days is something that i have no idea.right.that's like something-
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N
3.6
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... they still haven't provided a great answer on. they have no idea how big this is going to be, how many people will appeal, how it will go.yeah and-
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X
4.2
4
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i'm curious about one thing.you mentioned in the beginning that this just going to be focused on individual pieces of content. that strikes me as odd because i, and maybe i'm wrong-
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N
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Train
-things like that. i would think that they would want to start with something that is a rarer case that happens in more extreme situations where the appeal is more-
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H
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... meaningful, or at least that would be my assumption.right, because you'd just have like a smaller end to start with.exactly.yeah, no, completely. i think that-
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N
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3.4
3.8
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Train
... tell you that. but i've asked a few engineers at this point, and this seems pretty reasonable, it's actually a tooling thing and like a-
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H
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Train
... privacy thing. so, it makes sense. they can't freeze an entire page in one moment for review-
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N
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3.4
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... because there's so many people that have so many permissions and so they can't actually.right.and because the person who appeals it often they can't-
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H
3
3.6
3
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Train
... for privacy reasons, can't get rid of all other users in the site because they're implied and they appeal.right.and so their content ends up going up and going through-
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H
4
3.8
4
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... content that they have incentives to be.right, right.so that actually kind of makes sense to me.it does, yeah.
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H
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3.6
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Train
... valid point, yeah. interesting.yeah. and i pushed back on that, but that seems consistent with across platform. like i've checked with other platforms and other engineers.right.and that seems-
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F
2.833333
3.333333
1.666667
1,373
Female
Train
that's actually pretty consistent. one of the hardest things that you have to think about too, that you kind of set, my mind-
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N
3.8
3.4
3.2
1,373
Female
Train
... would just kind of explode sometimes when i was sitting in these meetings.
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U
6.333333
4.5
6.166667
1,373
Female
Train
it was like, oh my gosh. yeah. you're taking content that people have posted and have given privacy permissions to facebook and then you have to make it-
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H
6.6
5.8
6.2
1,373
Female
Train
... book.right.and so they have to figure out a way-for privacy, yeah.... for privacy to give that information over in a privacy compliant way. so that was-
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F
3.166667
3.5
3
1,373
Female
Train
that was like, you know. that was just one smallof 8,000,000,000 questions that was just one small part of the difficulty in tooling this.yeah. so-
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N
3.6
3.6
3.8
480
Male
Train
... post those members basically get to hire the rest?yeah. so this was fascinating because it's real chicken and egg problem.yeah.how do you-
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N
3.2
3.6
3.6
1,373
Female
Train
so, everyone had really strong feelings about this. in the workshops that they did globally people were like, facebook can't pick them, they'll be in facebook's pocket. but then how do you-
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A
6
1.833333
6.166667
1,373
Female
Train
... pick them? and a lot of people were like, make a selection committee. well, who picks the selection committee?right.right? it's turtles all the way down.it's got to start somewhere.
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H
6.2
5.6
6.2
1,373
Female
Train
that's it exactly. yeah, exactly. and there were a-
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N
3.6
3.8
3.8
1,373
Female
Train
... whole study about how people perpetuate inequality in hiring practices and she was consulted and she was there. i was in a meeting with her and she just had really interesting things to say.
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N
3.8
3.4
3.8
1,373
Female
Train
one of the big things was that no matter who you present them with, no matter how diverse and how global and how qualified, people will tend to pick people that look like them.right.so that's-
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N
3.6
3.8
3.6
1,373
Female
Train
... one of the problems because people wanted a diverse board. that was like the number one thing. so you kind of have-
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