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transcript
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H
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and i would argue that is done in bad faith to make use of the good faith limitation- [crosstalk 00:05:22]oh man, right. so what other aspects of the-
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N
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... executive order? again, without going into breaking down every little detail, because this is really more about the underlying principles, would you say have impact for understanding and really interpreting and explaining what cda 230 is-
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... and isn't?yeah. one important part, and this was added at the last minute, perhaps literally, because the draft that was leaked the night before did not have this. but the final executive order-
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... did have it, is that it instructs the attorney general to draft a law ... oddly, not a federal law, but to draft a reference state law-
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... which is that 230 is not a universal immunity. it is not as universal as people make it out to be. and one thing that it does not cover: it-
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... able to go after those sites. that includes third-party content. there are a whole bunch of conditions on that. if there is drug dealing, human trafficking, those things going on on those sites-
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N
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... those sites potentially could be criminally liable. so the attorney general and the justice department, the fbi have always had the leeway to make use of the law to go after these sites.
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and yet for the last few months, the attorney general has been attacking 230, and acting as if it limited his power in some way, when it-
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N
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... simply does not. but now he can draft a law, and he'd sort of already been doing that. what's so amazing about what you just said though, mike-
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X
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... the part about the federal part actually immediately reminded me of the encryption debate, which we actually have discussed on this very show, 60 minutes. and listeners can listen to our reframing of that debate-
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N
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... another place where policymakers on both sides have very conflicted views on.yeah, and there's already a bill that's in congress that was put together-
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... with the help of the attorney general. it ties the 230 debate to the encryption debate, and it's very convoluted.oh, this is the earn it-
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... the earn it act. and what it has the potential to do is to say that if you are offering end-to-end encryption on your-
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N
3
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... service, you no longer get 230 protections. it's a little more complicated than that. but his ability to do that in a manner that would remain constitutional is a pretty big question.
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but again, it could create a huge nuisance. and part of this is also he's going to establish a working group. and so there will be discussions and round tables and panels and-
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H
3
3
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480
Male
Train
... hearings and subpoenas and all sorts of things that are going to happen in the meantime, that are designed to be an intimidation tactic to try and ... the phrase that everyone-
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... uses is "work the refs", right? it means basically, "hey, twitter, facebook, youtube: if you don't want us to keep causing trouble for you, maybe-"
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"... don't be mean to us. don't fact-check us, don't limit our tweets. don't limit our content. don't put extra notices on it or other limitations on it, because the-"
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H
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"... more you do that, the more of a pain we're going to be to you."to summarize at a super-high level, the fcc has extremely limited jurisdiction over websites-
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H
4
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Train
the attorney general does have some ability. we haven't talked about what's not in the executive order. but this is where there's a little bit of a dust storm is very distracting, which is-
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... that congress could choose to rewrite policy, if they wanted, using this as an incitement for that. yeah, there are people in both the house and senate who have said that-
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H
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... they will introduce legislation based on this, and try and do more than the executive order can do. whether or not that legislation can actually go anywhere-
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... any such legislation would almost certainly be subject immediately to a first amendment challenge, and would likely fail. but that would be many years into the future.right. so we forgot-
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... one bit of the executive order, which is probably the only legit thing in there, seemingly, which is that part of this had the threat of limiting any-
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... dollars of advertising going to these sites. i, by the way, did a little quick check. and based on federal procurement records; this is according to the verge; apparently-
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... $200,000 of advertising have been provided to twitter specifically since 2008, which sounds a little crazy to me. it can't be getting-
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... everything that seems way too low. but even still, it does suggest that the government advertising is actually a very tiny piece of the bottom-line revenues of these companies. but-
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H
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i'm curious for your take on that.yeah, so that is one thing that an executive order actually can do, right? which is instruct certain federal agencies in terms of how they're spending their money in some form-
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-or another.oh, by the way, to be clear, when you say their money, we're actually still talking about taxpayer money-yes, yes.-here?mostly taxpayer money. there are a few exceptions, but mostly taxpayer money is what we're talking-
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X
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-about here. and what's funny is the executive order sort of implies that it is telling agencies to stop spending on these websites, but it doesn't actually-
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-say that, it says they have to account for what they're spending and they have to submit it to the office of management and budget. and then-
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-something may happen in the future based on that. and the implication is that they should not be spending. so there could be a tiny, tiny, tiny-
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H
3
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the few federal agencies that do advertise on social media actually probably have pretty good reason for that. and the one big example is the census bureau and it's 2020 and we're-
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-in the midst of supposedly collecting the census.i forgot about that, right.because every 10 years we have to do a census and one of the best ways that-
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-the government has found to get out the word and to get people to actually fill out their census forms is through advertising on social media and therefore-
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X
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-pulling that budget and telling the census bureau that they cannot advertise actually could limit the ability of the census bureau to collect the data that they are required-
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-under the constitution to collect.so, mike, this is a wonderful summary so far of what section 230 of the communications decency act does and doesn't allow of the-
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[crosstalk 00:01:51] -recent news. what's hype, what's real? and sort of really using that to explain sort of these laws that have allowed our modern internet. i will-
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-be linking just in the show notes, so people note to a lot of the articles that did good explainers, a lot of your wonderful pieces in particular, as well as the actual executive order.
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and the analysis of the differences that eric goldman, our mutual friend, put up and did. one question i do have for you, this is very much playing out against a broader backdrop of-
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[crosstalk 00:02:23] -except maybe in spread and engagement and scale.
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there's been a lot of complaints about things like shadow banning. there's also a lot of conflation between content and behaviors, like what sites can do versus what they say.
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and for me, it seems like when it comes to this content moderation debate, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. i'm curious for your thoughts on a, where this-
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-fits in that longer, broader scape of that debate. and then b, is there a way forward in your mind?so i put a joke on techdirt-
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-a few months ago and i keep referring to it over and over again. there's a famous economist, kenneth arrow. he had this thing called the arrow impossibility theorem, which is-
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-he looked at all different kinds of voting systems and argued that none of them can accurately reflect the will of the populace. and so i did a play on that-
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which i called, humbly, the masnick impossibility theorem.you are a very humble guy. we go way back, i think it's been quite a number of years i've known you.
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i don't even remember how long ago that was, but it was way back because-it might be like 15... no, not 15, maybe 15? almost like 12-
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-12 years now.could be.i don't know.yeah.i love that you named it after yourself. i want to hear about the masnick impossibility theorem.it is that it is impossible to do content moderation-
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-well. and there are variety of reasons for that, one being that any kind of content moderation is going to piss off someone. and that is generally the person whose-
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-content was moderated. the second element of it too, is that so much of this is subjective decision making and everybody has a different view on these things and everyone has a different-
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-determination on this. and we ran a sort of conference event a few years ago where we made everyone in the audience have to be content moderators for-
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-a number of different case studies effectively. and we had a hundred content moderator experts in the audience and none of them agreed. and every case that we did-
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-people had strong disagreements over what should have been done about this particular content. and then on top of that, you just have the law of large numbers. and if you're making decisions on 500-
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-million pieces of content a day and you get it 99.999%-
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-correct, you're still going to have a huge number of mistakes, however you define mistakes. there are things that are going to be missed. there are things that are going to be taken-
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-down that probably should not have been taken down. that is going to happen, there's no way to avoid that. and in absolute numbers because the overall set is-
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-so large, it's going to appear like these companies are incompetent in how they moderate content. that is just the reality of the process of moderating content.
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nothing is going to fix that. hiring more human moderators is not going to fix that, building better ai is not going to fix that. you can improve on it, but-
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-one of the nice things about section 230 and the way it is structured and that there is no liability for the moderation is that it allows for different-
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-experimentation to happen. so you have very different approaches and everybody focuses on twitter and facebook and youtube, but then you have to take into account tons of other-
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-sites, including wikipedia. wikipedia is allowed to have all these individuals editing their platform because of 230. or you look at another site like reddit, right? reddit-
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-has set up all these different subreddits and each of them have their own moderators that allow them to set up their own rules. that's allowed. that is possible because of section-
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--like wikipedia for research, but also i just want to make a point on this, that it applies to vaccine sites and anti-vaxxer sites. it applies to all kinds of sites.
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and that variety is partly the point here as well and i think that's really important to underscore.and let me underscore it even further. cda 230 protects every website-
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-online. people say that, 'oh, it's a gift to big tech and newspapers don't get this.' no, newspapers get it too for their website. every website gets this.
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and that means your personal blog. it means when you retweet someone, you get that protection as well. all of these things and all-
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-of these other sites and all of these other services and everything that everyone is building. i mean, lots of people listening to this are building different internet services. all of those services are protected by 230 and this-
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-matters way beyond just the big three or four companies out there.i'm so glad you brought that up, mike, because the most and really only alarming line in the-
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-executive order to me was this. quote, "for purposes of this order, the term 'online platform' means any website or application that allows users to create and share-
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-content or engage in social networking or any general search engine." and that is quite literally every site.that is, it is every site.every site of every size. and it makes me think-
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-of the other law. it's not masnick's law of impossibilities, it is the law of unintended consequences. and this seems true for every regulation. and i think of-
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-gdpr and all these other regulations, that all they really did in fact was help bigger companies, the very group they were trying not to. and then-
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-all the smaller players who don't have huge compliance arms and legal officers and many more people they can hire to moderate and process queries and take down requests get punished.
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which then further entrenches, so it's a vicious loop essentially.and that should be very scary because part of the executive order itself starts out by claiming that the reason they have to do this executive-
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-order is because there are limited number of social media sites out there. and yet the definition that they have in the setup of what they're trying to-
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-do would effectively limit that even further, by making it impossible for a new competition to show up and for smaller sites to exist. and the more you-
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-put in place these kinds of rules and regulations, the more difficult you make it for there to be any new startups in the space, any new websites, because it becomes-
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-a costly mess for any smaller website to comply.right. and while i completely agree with you that people alone or technology alone is not the answer-
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-one thing i do want to point out about the way forward, part of it, is that this conflates the ownership of who decides, versus also the size-
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-of the company that decides. so for instance, instead of having a single ceo decide, this is my vision for this big company, crypto is an oftenly cited-
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-case. my partner, chris dixon has written an op-ed in wired about this a couple years ago, as a way forward for thinking about the governance of some of these sites, and thinking-
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-of a crypto decentralized native way so that it's a community owned and operated service, which is his way of thinking about it. and you and i have talked about crypto many, many times over the course-
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-of our friendship in years. and i think at the inaugural copia policy institute, i think you had a whole section on crypto if i remember. and i'm curious for your thoughts on that as well.
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yeah, so last year i wrote a paper for the knight first amendment center at columbia university, which is called protocols, not platforms.ah, i remember this.
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i teased you about it where i was like, mike... [crosstalk 00:09:44]the horcruxes- [crosstalk 00:09:45]yeah, i was like, 'hello, it's not horcruxes, mike,' and i myself do not love when people use harry potter analogies but-
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my god. that was so perfect for that. i'm sorry.no, no. i remember that.it's very much how those network [inaudible 00:00:15] which is great protocol. it's not platform.yeah. yes. you know, that paper discusses what-
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all based systems and that changes a number of the content moderation questions. it doesn't make them go away. and i do think that is one mistake-
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that some people make, which is they think well, if we just set it up on a crypto based distributed system, then we just wipe-
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our hands of it and it's everybody's individual decision and however it's implemented, let that happen.it also doesn't leave room for the variety of governance approaches that are inevitable in that-
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as well, because for the record, just as you're arguing for a variety of experiments, whether it's a privately owned, public owned company, centralized, decentralized, whichever. even in the crypto world-
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there's a variety of governance approaches that can be applied, which is great. there's been a lot of experiments already playing out on that front when it comes to protocols.and i think that's good, it's-
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that experimentation that we need. that experimentation is not designed just to find the best result but, to recognize that there are-
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different best results for different communities and different purposes and different services. there are certain cases where you want a wikipedia approach and there are certain cases where you want-
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a reddit approach and there are certain cases where you want a twitter approach. whatever other approaches there are as well. and you can have all these different things and some-
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of them work in some cases. the only way we're allowed to figure that out is if we have the freedom to make those choices and see what happens.-
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that's a wonderful note to end on. so in this show, we ask our guests, our experts to bottom line it for me. and while this has been a lot-
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further than 16 minutes, it's a special long episode. bottom line it for me and mike. what's a big takeaway?so the rules of how the internet works are under attack. this is-
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executive order by itself is not going to effectively change anything. it's going to cause a lot of heat and light, but very little actual fire, but-
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what we are seeing, and this goes beyond just this executive order, is that people are really trying to change the way moderation works online. and we've already seen-
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