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**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah... There's a lot of things also... If you have a consistent relationship with someone and that relationship has some -- some awareness in that relationship might be "How is your communication happening? Has it become more frequent, less frequent? When you do talk, do you talk shortly? Do you ta... |
\[28:13\] Whether it's somebody you're in close, intimate relationship, or if it's just somebody brand new that you're trying to essentially argue with over a point of view... And there's no winning, because you will both walk away not right, or both right, and never really resolve it. So maybe arguing, communication..... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** I definitely think those are true, because ironically... Some researchers have contended that couples' difficulties with communication - because a lot of people will go seek therapy when communication is a problem... But how many couples when they're first dating have issues with communica... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** A lot, because you're actually learning quite a bit about the other person, and some people aren't comfortable with sharing extensive information, because of past hurt, or whatever... But there's some reason. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. But a lot of times they're actually close, because you have a strong desire to know and understand, right? So when relationships are working well, communication generally does come easily. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...flow very well, yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. And you actually come closer. So I might look at - you're spot on - proximity to others. Who do I routinely interface with, and what do those exchanges or interactions look like? Do they feel good in the moment? Do they pay dividends after the fact? How do I feel even going to work? ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, what you're describing really requires a lot of self-awareness, and taking stock - I think we've said this before - of what's going on. "Who am I talking to? Who are the close relationships in my life? How am I performing at my job?" Not so much just performing, but how much do I even like doi... |
I liked where you were going at though, which is what are some of the indicator lights of off-kilter, respect, empathy and compassion... So from a clinical standpoint, what does some of that manifest? We've given some examples, but is there more? |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Well, I think that in some ways people -- some people might talk about depression and anxiety... Well, we talk about them in all sorts of ways, but some would say depression looks more like a certain sort of cognitive rigidity, an inflexibility in one's mind... Whereas anxiety is sort of l... |
\[31:56\] But another key thing, even with that depression -- one of the key symptoms is actually sort of these excessive feelings of guilt. Guilt is actually an interesting indicator light, because guilt doesn't work. I always describe it like a hook. I can't feel guilty unless I allow someone to make me feel guilty. ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right... Okay. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** And that isn't always true. Sometimes guilt actually looks like "I just didn't give somebody else what they wanted. Somebody else wanted me to do for them, that I couldn't actually give to them." Say you're working on a team and one person - I'm sure this never happens; ever, ever - does a... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Because I gave, I extended and output so much more energy than what I actually had to give, and now I hold hostility towards you, because of what you didn't give. But wait... Who gave it? I did. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, you did, because it was your feelings and your choice... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And what's really interesting to that is that all this happens without the other person having any interaction or true input to it. All they did was do what they do, and you manufactured it all in your brain. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right! And so welcome to the oddities in interpersonal exchanges, when you're like "What just happened?! What's going on?" Because you just had that entire scenario all by yourself. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. They're now a villain and they didn't do anything truly wrong. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right. But so if I don't communicate, ironically, and say "Hey, I'm feeling like I'm doing a little too much work here... How can we reallocate?" or "I only have this bandwidth to give..." It doesn't mean that I don't want to give that, but it might mean that right now, in light of all my ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. This happens a lot in open source software. I'll give you a quick scenario... So in open source software you often have this idea of someone who creates it and maintains the software... So a creator/maintainer, someone who does a majority of the work. And then you have the idea of contributors... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. But so, ironically, then what would also be helpful to navigate that differently would look like creating clarity around the expectation. So "I expect to have X, Y or Z done or completed by such-and-such in time, on such-and-such a day... Or not." Or "Here's what I can do." Or "I can... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[36:16\] It might also mean maybe never... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** It could... \[laughs\] It could. But that allows flexibility if you want to extend that, to say "I will put a sort of cursor/tab mark right there that I'm willing to revisit it at a later time." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It kind of reminds me of the buffer you talk about with habits... It puts a buffer between the person and the other person; so the person who says "I can't right now" or "Not right now" or "No, not right now" kind of thing, and the other person who has expectations of that person. It's almost like t... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Sure. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** There is no expectation. But one thing you said there, which was clarity and expectation - I'm a huge fan of, but not always perfect at, giving and receiving clear expectations. That alone in relationship - in all relationships, every relationship - is a key ingredient for this discontentment or con... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Amen. Yes, exactly. And that's why these are so significant in working in teams, but just living beside other people. I think another word we can talk about is this sense of cooperating; "co" being more than one, right...? Operating - that more than one is operating at the same time. So it... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We've talked around a couple words here, and you've mentioned this John Gottman's research... And I think it's positioned on marital relationships, but the four horsemen - these four things are kind of crucial to a healthy relationship. Can you walk through that with us, please? |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yes. So John Gottman is the leading researcher when it comes to relationships. He has researched couples in romantic relationships for (oh, goodness) over 20 years. In fact, he's had over 3,000 couples, and some for as long as 20 years... And he's identified four key things when it comes t... |
The first one of them is criticism. Sometimes criticism can be constructive... That it's feedback around what we could do differently, or do better. But criticism in the negative lane looks like making negative judgments or proclamations about other people in absolute terms. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** "You always do this..." or "You are always bad at that." Sorry, I had to jump in there. My bad. It's coming out, it's coming out... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** \[39:51\] Exactly. It was, because we teach this to our kids... And ironically, the other day I had said something about "always" or "never", and it was my child who reminded me, like "Mom, in this family we don't say always and never." I was like, "Thank you, child..." Because he gave bac... |
Then we have defensiveness, which - this arises when we feel criticized or attacked. It's sort of like "I'm gonna not take responsibility", or again, blame this on another person. "Well, that wasn't my fault. You didn't tell me I was responsible to do X, Y or Z, so it's up to you to manage that, alright?" Think hot pot... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's right. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Then we're gonna talk about contempt. And contempt is really a far more destructive form of criticism, that involves treating your partner fundamentally with this sense of disrespect, ridicule or disgust. This is rooted in name-calling, like "You're such a jerk. I can't believe you would d... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Sometimes even intentionally. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Sometimes you have contempt -- not so much accidentally, but not truly intentionally... But then sometimes you do it and you intend to really word-assault them, and hurt their feelings and shame them, or... Your intention is emotional pain. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right. Another example of this would be like mean-spirited sarcasm, or rolling your eyes... I'm sure you've never encountered-- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I've never done that. No, I don't... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I just really don't do that, okay? I really don't. I said that as funny, but I really don't roll my eyes. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** There's a way in which it is so dismissive of another person, and just mean... To say "You aren't worth my respect." And it hurts. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I didn't think about that worth part. That's a value - you are not valuable. Your perspective isn't valuable. Your feelings aren't valuable. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right, and that's why this is such a powerful one, that of all of these four horsemen, contempt is the worst. And I would offer that the reason is because it's rooted in a fundamental sense of disrespect, or a lack of value for another human being. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** So we offer this fundamental layer that says "You're human, and so we're on the same team." And if I wouldn't do that to a family member or somebody else I care about, maybe I shouldn't do that to a stranger either. And I can then also move it over into the lane of the self, and go "Do I a... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Wow, that's true. |
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