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\[15:55\] When I was first thinking about this stuff it was like, "How do you just get money into the problem in the first place and coming straight from VC?", that was my first thought. But I'm thinking more about "How do we create a sustainable system of support?" and that's not gonna be the best-aligned place, in my... |
**Jerod Santo:** So looking back at those deep conversations that you were able to have during season one, what are some highlights from your perspective, favorite moments or episodes? |
**Nadia Eghbal:** I think Heather was my favorite one, or at least one of my favorites. Heather is one of those people I'd had I think one conversation with before, and I remember coming away from that conversation and just scribbling down all these notes because I just didn't know all these things. She was so understa... |
And being able to go that deep on licenses - and not just licenses in the sense that... I think talking about licenses can get very politicized in open source, but with her I felt like it was more about history and it was more about understanding the broader landscape, and having that kind of conversation I think was g... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, that one surprised me more than any other episode. I definitely thought that we were gonna have one conversation, and then it turned into something much more. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** How do you mean? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I really thought that it would end up being more about the licensing side of things, and it ended up being really about sustainability at the end of the day, and how licensing plays into that and is an aspect of that. And I thought that we would end up talking more about free software licensing, just... |
I think we ended up following that conversation a lot; more than most of them, we fell back to the notes a little bit less. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Yeah. I remember one thing she said that stuck with me... It was about how licenses themselves are these reusable documents where instead of every project having to pay a whole bunch of legal fees to get their docs in order, you just had these documents you can essentially copy/paste into your project... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Everybody's really giving the same thing every single time, because there's some unique experience for each and every company, and everybody ends up doing the same thing, just copy/paste the business name, to some degree. I mean, they'll probably even hire the same firms, same attorneys... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** And in open source it's like anybody can just access the text, copy it, put it under your project, and you're done. That's pretty nuts. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That certainly speaks to the dry mentality of the software development world - not just software developers, but those that operate in open source, everyone from evangelists to those who help with documentation, to those who actually write core code... There's appreciation for "Don't repeat yourself... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Well, I think the difference in perspective between developers and lawyers looks really interesting, too. Like, I've never heard somebody say, "What do you mean 'license proliferation'?" There is no standardization around any licensing in the proprietary world. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, that was interesting. So you have the authorship side from the lawyer perspective or from the business perspective; if you have proprietary license, you have to hire somebody (a lawyer) to write that, and on the receiving side as well. So if you say "This is MIT", we have a preconceived understan... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[19:56\] I also appreciated - and this isn't exactly accurate, but something she said was pretty funny... "I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on Reddit." \[laughter\] Which is not true; I mean, she's a lawyer... |
**Jerod Santo:** She is a lawyer! |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I wasn't really sure why she said that, but I thought it was funny. We pulled that out as a pulled quote for that episode, as well. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** I'm not sure, but I think we're talking about how everyone just has these really strong opinions about legal and licensing stuff in open source, because you kind of have to... But in the end you're not actually a lawyer, you're just sort of like taking your opinions and beating other people on the hea... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So we zoom out a little bit and we look at all of season one, we're done with it. We've looked back at the beginnings of it, so to speak... There had to have been some sort of overarching message that the two of you were hoping to get across to the audience. What was that message, and did we achieve... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** For me it actually just kind of crystallized two things that... Well, actually I shouldn't say "crystallized", because I hadn't really come to this until we started doing the podcast, and I don't know if it was just the podcast or also other conversations that I had with Nadia. But there's kind of tw... |
One is that just the notion of sustainability and sustainable practices needs to become part of the general developer mindset the way that testing became part of the general mindset. Open source developers did not write tests when I started doing open source. That wasn't a thing, and there was a conscious movement to g... |
The other one, which is somewhat related to what Nadia was talking about with venture is that we need companies to understand how dependent they are on open source, and to then develop a relationship to open source that is based on how much they are actually dependent on it for their business, rather than charity, whic... |
If they put money into open source, it's in this weird charity bucket, and it's disconnected from the actual business value. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Very much, yeah. I can agree with that. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** ... and that's not sustainable, and it doesn't connect properly, and it doesn't give the people who work there the right kind of flexibility they need in order to contribute and to be part of open source. |
A lot of people are gonna be mad for me to say this, because it's a lot of people's job and it's definitely been my job in the past, but I don't necessarily agree with having this one open source person or this group of people that work on open source that are detached from the product and detached from the rest of the... |
If all of your product and all of your engineering is dependent on open source, all of your engineers for some portion of their time should be contributing to open source, should be involved. Because if you don't have a seat at the table and you don't get to direct where it's going, you eventually won't be able to use ... |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Yeah, I think thematically Mikeal kind of stole my answer! |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Oh, man... \[laughter\] |
**Nadia Eghbal:** But that's a good thing, it means we had the same message for this show. Again, Mikeal had said when we started this about how it'd be really interesting to talk to these people who are known and accomplished for certain aspects of their life and they don't get to talk or think about the other aspects... |
\[24:08\] In the beginning of this year maybe that was less obvious, and now I feel like it's becoming more obvious. We've talked about how there's some people who think this stuff doesn't matter at all, so there's a lot of history that has to be overcome to say "This stuff actually matters. It's a really big part of t... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** In light of that, who is the listener of this show? What types of people? Is it maintainers, is it people inside of companies, CTOs, executives? Who should be listening to this show? Who's our audience? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I mean, are you asking who we want the audience to be, or who seems to be listening to it? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, I think both... Who's this show designed for, in terms of the preparation and the admiration and the hope for this show, but then also who listens to it and who should listen to it? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** To me, the most important people who listen to it are those that are in some position of leadership inside a community. I wanna reach them first and foremost, and then from there reach more people. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** I've been getting feedback from people from all over the place, but when I think about who I've mentally designed this show for, it's people that are some sort of community leader within open source in particular, who have some sort of responsibility to a project or to a set of people, and who are sim... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We touched a little earlier on - to some degree - how this show was formed, but the question I'm sure a lot of people ask is why the two of you together. Mikeal, you mentioned you listened to the episode we did with Nadia back in January, you had a meeting with her later that week; you hadn't actual... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Well, for me, I just wanted to be able to talk to Nadia all the time. \[laughter\] |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Likewise, yay! |
**Mikeal Rogers:** We don't really... I mean, even though we live in the same city, it's hard to schedule time to just be like, "Hey, let's sit and just chat for a while." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So podcasting is a new way to meet. I like it. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Basically... Yeah, I mean, I remember thinking -- I had talked to so many people, and plenty of conversations resonated with different people, but I felt like with Mikeal it was someone I kept coming back to again and again. I think in our first conversation I realized he had seen so many different ty... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I remember, Jerod, when we got that email from Nadia... Take us back, Jerod, if you can help me share these details... I recall Jerod and I having this perspective -- and it wasn't against Mikeal, we were just so pro-Nadia at that point. We were like, "I'm not sure we really wanna do a show that has... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, I was calling it "The Nadia Show"... \[laughter\] |
**Mikeal Rogers:** It's still The Nadia Show, by the way... \[laughter\] |
**Jerod Santo:** \[27:57\] ...and I was like, "No, Nadia's fine." But then Nadia's like, "Well, I really think Mikeal would add to it", and I was like "Wow, I mean... I'm willing to give that a shot, as well", and I actually think, Nadia, you were probably right and we were probably wrong. I think the show definitely i... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I'm gonna share - hopefully, Nadia, you're not worried about this, or get any anxiety about it - a little piece that was in the original email from Nadia back to us. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Oh, Jesus... |
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