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**Adam Stacoviak:** Embrace it. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** ...I have to have something ready. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Can we talk about the design of the show a little bit then on that note? Since off the cuff is something you're scared of, we kind of come into the show a little differently than maybe other podcasts where they sort of say, "So, I guess, tell everybody who you are" and they ran for it ten minutes, a... |
**Nadia Eghbal:** This is one of the things that I didn't really think about until Mikeal pointed this out, but that we get to bring people on the show to talk about, aside of themselves, what they don't always get asked about... So it's not always about what they've done from a technical perspective, but sort of like ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I mean, there always is that first section where we do get into the person's background, but we always where we get into their background specific to what we wanna talk about later. We really just wanna provide the audience with their credentials and credibility around whatever side of sustainability... |
We rarely talk about somebody's entire history, because it's usually not relevant. I mean, there are some exceptions... Heather Meeker has an amazing legal history, and I think all of it is probably relevant to her views on the legal side of open source. But for most people we don't do that at all, because so much of w... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[08:11\] They're very - I wouldn't say "timeless", where you could just listen to them forever, but it's not like you can say, "Oh, that was recorded November 2016" or "That was in October, for sure." From the perspective of the show it's not really like a timestamp on it; it's almost timeless to a... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, and some are better than others for that. You know, Brendan is working on a lot of really relevant stuff right now, so I think that his one is probably a little bit more timestamped, especially the third section of that one. I think that discussion we had with Karl Fogel will basically... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...go down in history. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, that one... Well, I think his book is still relevant ten years later, so I think that conversation probably has some longevity of a few years at least. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And you even said -- I forget what you were working at at the time, but you were saying that that was like the bible that everyone put on their desks for open source and how to run governance, and how to do open source, basically. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, it was. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What's the book's name? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Producing Open Source Software. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Gotcha. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** According to him, there's gonna be an inversion coming up, but we're still waiting on it. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And since we've been working with O'Reilly too, we've gotta give thanks because they did let him do some unique... I think the license is a Creative Commons license. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** There's like a website, ProducingOSS.com. That is the whole book, in its entirety. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We have to do better with our show notes. I'm going to our show notes now for both of these shows and the book is not linked up... Why!? |
**Jerod Santo:** What?! |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, I don't know why the book is not linked up. I'm looking at it... I know I did this, so it's my fault. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Gotta fix it. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** This is my fault. We'll fix this. If you're listening to this, it's considered fixed, okay? \[laughter\] The links will be there. It's available online, you can read it online, and I believe it's creative commons. That's a unique thing for O'Reilly, because they obviously paid to get that book produ... |
Let's talk about some favorite moments then from this season. I know that I've got a couple myself... We've kind of talked around a couple of them to some degree just now, but anyone wanna start off with a favorite moment from this season that they can share with the listeners? |
**Jerod Santo:** My favorite was episodes \#1 and \#2, what I would call the somewhat heated debate between Karl and Mikeal about many things. Mikeal, from your perspective, were you having a lot of fun during that conversation? Because I had a lot of fun listening to it. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** It was great, it was great. I think there was actually one moment where both Nadia and I sort of landed on... We very much disagreed with Karl's perspective, or we had a different perspective, but it was just such a great conversation that we could disagree and not be angry. And we were really trying... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah... What I really respected about Karl - and I have to go back and listen again because I think it was the first episodes that I listened to, probably back in August or maybe even July, so I don't remember the exact details... But there was a specific moment where you kind of changed his mind about... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, yeah... I mean, we scheduled that one for a two-parter, because we knew that it would take so long. Me and Nadia both talked to Karl before, and had an understanding of how long that it could go. With most of these people, like we were saying, there is an aspect of their work that we wanna talk... |
\[12:14\] I don't know if you felt like this, Nadia, but I felt like we didn't have enough time... |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Oh, yeah... I mean, he was the original inspiration for this show, and we were like "Oh, we should just do a podcast with Karl"; we could have done every episode on him. \[laughter\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** This was actually the same day, too. I recall this. Didn't we do back-to-back, part I, part II with Karl? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, it was just a straight up, three-hour block, yeah. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Yeah, and I really wasn't exhausted afterwards. I was just like, "Alright, let's go again." |
**Jerod Santo:** Any chance to get him back on in season two? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Hopefully his book is done and we can bring him on and talk about it. |
**Jerod Santo:** That'd be cool. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Other favorite moments? Mikeal, what's a favorite moment from you? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I really liked having Max on, because... I mean, Max is one of my really good friends and I talk to him pretty often. We used to have a company together and kind of talk every day, and very few moments in that were things that me and Max had talked about before. It was all really new stuff, the kind ... |
**Nadia Eghbal:** But I didn't know the other stuff that was on there. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, but I had no idea. I did not know that grant funders love convenings, and that they're called convenings. I didn't even know that. \[laughter\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Wow. That's where you go and you network and shake hands and meet new people, and stuff like that...? |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Yeah, but it's never a networking event, it's always a convening. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Convening, okay. There you go. So that's episode \#6, that was Max Ogden talking about grant funding. Now, Nadia, when we had you on the Changelog, we talked a bit about grant funding, to some degree, around sustaining open source, and you had some pretty unique perspectives around VC and also grant... |
**Nadia Eghbal:** About Max's episode, or...? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, that episode there, about grant funding and that process. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** I was super happy that we had an entire episode dedicated to that. I think that was what I've been excited about with this show in general - we organized season one with each episode focusing on a different topic, and just being able to go that deep on a topic was really fulfilling. I talked to Max a ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Real quick, can I talk about VC funding for a second? Because I feel like we've been a year from your first post back in January, and the conversation that we had on the Changelog, wherein you talked about the potential of VCs being interested in the funding of open source... Now you can look back at t... |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Yeah, a lot. I'm kind of curious to go back and listen to that episode, because I think a lot has changed. The thing I felt really solid on this whole year has been that there is a problem that should be talked about. Figuring out what to do about the problem is obviously the hardest part, and I think... |
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