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transcript
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480
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... change. it's one thing to say-
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... and i've been arguing for years that the privacy debate is often misunderstood because everybody, what they mean by privacy is always something entirely different.
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N
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people have a very different sense of what privacy actually-
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H
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... means. and my argument, and nobody seems to agree-
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H
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... with me on this. my argument is that privacy is always about trade offs, and-
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H
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... that going out to buy groceries is a privacy risk in the sense that people can see you outside and can see what-
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H
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... who you are. but for most people that trade off is-
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H
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... entirely worth it because nobody cares that you're going shopping for groceries-
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N
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... or what you're buying. but in some cases the balance of-
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H
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... that trade off could be different. if you're a celebrity, it becomes a lot more difficult to do that for.
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N
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i think the same thing is true now that we're talking about privacy in a pandemic. suddenly the questions become different.
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X
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there have been these debates around like contact tracing and what are the privacy questions there? and if you have technology like-
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H
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... contact tracing apps, are there privacy concerns-
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H
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... cause many fewer people to-
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H
4
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480
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... die? is that a trade off that we're willing to make? i think a lot of questions are suddenly opened up by this.
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i agree with you on a lot of this. i think one of-
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H
3
3
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Train
the big mistakes the broader tech industry has made was not explaining the bargain for so long. and i think that's how we
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N
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ended up here in many ways.
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and i hope you, what you just said is the way we think about it. i
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know that a lot of states are thinking about contact tracing apps
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will be soon. and i know that they're thinking hard about
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privacy. and i know a lot of the state legislatures are thinking hard about oversight.
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H
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got to make sure it doesn't sit around on a server any longer than it needs to, kind of pretty basic steps.
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talking about saving lives.
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truly save lives or get kids into schools or, get
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our society back up and running. i think that tech...
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A
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i'm not being dismissive of privacy itself. i think it is important to have that as a key part of the conversation
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but i think that we need to understand what the different trade offs are and how we're doing this. and can we build these
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that recognizes that there are privacy concerns, but that we don't, just sort of
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wipe out an entire category or an entire concept just because of a theoretical privacy concern. and i think
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H
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[inaudible 00:01:33] mentioned in there that, the way you deal with that often is transparency and
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and choice, frankly, right? i mean, letting people know what is happening and why and how it's being used and for how long is it
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being stored and who has access to it and giving people the option and giving the users control over it.
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H
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and i think in those cases, you will have many people opt into these kinds of things because they recognize that the trade is worth it. the
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problem is when they're going in blind and they don't know, and then that data is somehow
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abused or, or treated badly. and then they
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well, i think that's exactly right. and to your larger point about other regulations that we might take a fresh look at
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i really do think that we might see that, it obviously depends how
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really change how much attention policy makers are paying
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how much attention they're paying, but something that
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i also think is so interesting is how, of course
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and i hesitate to make predictions of
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any sort. i obviously have very strong feelings, like most people on the election and hope very much, it goes a certain way
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and to the extent we maybe might see a change of leadership at our
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very diplomatic of you.yeah. right. i mean, i don't even know why i'm trying
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listen, i think some... there will be... if
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H
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true, when parties change, who's in power, in a normal circumstance,
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it clearly, this is not a normal circumstance at all. and
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H
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if we've got changes in the halls of power, i think that
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and there's still a global pandemic going on and
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i think you'll see all kinds of things change. and i think it'll be incredibly interesting. and i
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i think that people who think about this stuff from a policy point of view, or from a political point of view
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time getting ready for that. you know,
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i'm getting ready for that moment. because, it's going to be quick
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we'll see how that plays itself out. right. i
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am less optimistic if we don't do at a change in dc, but then honestly
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yes. and you would not be alone in that viewpoint. yeah.
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of, it could, could go in a weird and not necessarily great direction too. and i've certainly seen some policy proposals
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come out recently that i've been sort of a gas at, i mean,
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deep into, into that. but, i
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seen some people pushing for we need even longer patent terms and, more stringent patent terms to
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in order to incentivize, companies to make vaccines or whatever
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ever, which is crazy because we see, but is trying to make vaccines because saving the world is kind of important and you'll do fine. if you save the world, you don't need 30 years of
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protection for that. but, we see those
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proposals come out and, who knows, who knows,
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there will be important battles to fight
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what happens in november and
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buzzing, and yeah, i mean, i'm sure another conversations, all the voting stuff and the role technology is going to play there too. and how we
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think about voting and technology. i mean, obviously all for another day
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yeah. yeah. no, there's a lot going on. and i think i had, meant to raise
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this earlier in the discussion, but i think it's a good point to sort of close out on
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we talk about technology and we talk about the technology industry. and i think, one of the things that's becoming clear right now is that, it's almost weird to talk about the
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technology industry, because every industry has, some element of technology now. and everything is the tech industry and thinking of it as
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separate industry is maybe not as useful as it used to be.
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important in the context of cities and how we think about the growth of cities and, workforce development and jobs,
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it's totally true. every company is a tech company or needs to be a tech company. and
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that's a really... it's a really interesting dynamic from a policy and political perspective
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yeah. yeah. well on that note.yes.
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for having me, i could sit and talk to you forever about this stuff
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yes, yes, yes. and it is great to talk to you
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have you back on the podcast more often, we should
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good.i would look forward to that.and
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thanks again. and thanks to everyone for listening and we'll be back
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hello and welcome to the techdirt podcast. i'm mike masnick
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the act all the time. and i regret to inform you that this week will be no different. though i will say that i am working to line up a few non section 230 guests as well,
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to section 230 in a while, which also has the bonus awfulness of initially being presented as an attack on end to end encryption as well. this is the, earn it
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dsam, which is what used to be called child porn. and if sites followed those best practices, they could still enjoy section 230 protections
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time that a platform was trying to who hide csam on its platform. in other words, it could be a back door to well, backdooring encryption
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last week, the senate judiciary committee held a markup in which amendments to the bill were considered and voted on.and the bill actually changed somewhat drastically and a
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obvious attempt to respond to some of the criticism that had been leveled at the original bill. we'll get into all the nitty gritty details soon, but at a high level, the main text of the
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bill was entirely replaced by a new version from senators, graham, and blumenthal. that is actually quite different. it has some similarities, but is, really kind of a different bill while it's still
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has a commission to come up with some sort of best practices. those best practices do nothing. there's no more earning section 230 protections in
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earn it act. it's just a random set of recommendations by people who might not necessarily be the best place to be making such recommendations. however, in place of that, they've taken the
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path of simply adding in a new exception to section 234 csam.now, to me, this is weird on multiple levels first because csam
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already violates federal law. and federal law is already exempted from section 230 and always has been. second there just aren't that many cases out there where two 30 somehow block
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to csam lawsuit. it's unclear what the problem is actually being solved here, but an even bigger issue is that the whole structure of the original bill was that we needed
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[inaudible 00:09:18] must be totally exempted from the law without any evidence as to why or how that helps. the other big change that came out last week is that
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into impact encryption though, there are remaining concerns about how well that works with the rest of the bill and whether or not different state laws may still create problems for
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encryption. and there are worries at least that we'd be looking at years of litigation to figure that out. and there's also a whole different rabbit hole to
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there's much, much more to discuss in all of this, but i've been hogging the microphone for too long, when we have a real expert here to discuss all of this.
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