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... | people are perhaps very reasonably concerned about how much data these companies collect to put in place a bill that might encourage more collection of even more sensitive data. |
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... | less useful than immunity in the first place. Yes, and just to cut in, as an example of that. |
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... | I think a lot of people who listen to this will understand is there's always been this constant fight over in the copyright context of fair use and whether or not fair use... |
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... | it says it's not an infringement of copyright, therefore it should be considered an immunity, and yet it has been interpreted by the courts as a defense to infringement, that if you're accused of infringement. |
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... | In that case, the only way you can prove fair use is if you go through a long and costly trial. And so that is sort of the concern. |
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... | with the Leahy amendment is that you will only discover whether or not you are protected for your encryption uses after a lengthy trial, more or less. I mean, I. |
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... | you know, fair use can be so fact-intensive, right? Sure. And that means you might need to take a lot of discovery, figure out how, what they have, where they have it. |
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... | points to, maybe it's something that you'd bring in more in the summary judgment type phase. I would like to think that we could |
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... | if this bill were to pass, have this liability protection under the AHA amendment come in more at a motion to dismiss stage earlier on. |
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... | and you know for those not well versed in how federal lawsuits play out, motion dismissed comes before discovery in most cases, which comes before summary judgment and so |
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... | emotion dismiss on section 230 grounds, usually also in addition to other things like, oh, I don't know the First Amendment, that's, you know, would apply to kill. |
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... | the lawsuit anyway even in the absence of 230. But you know, I used to be a litigator in private practice, a large law firm here in the Bay Area. |
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... | to even get to the point where you can get a lawsuit thrown out that never should have been brought in the first place. If I were a federal judge, I would be handing out sanctions like. |
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... | of your end to end encryption design, it's some other reason, right? And I think it would be easy with creative lawyering or not particularly creative lawyering to come up with any number of... |
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... | reasons. So it might only just take away one of the reasons that you might be bringing to try and prove your case for liability under states |
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... | protected under section 230 when they shouldn't have been. That turns out to not really be the case and so that's part of the reason why I hesitated and of course |
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... | You know, mainly we're talking about Backpage, and of course Backpage got shut down the week before Cesta Fosta became law. And there are questions about whether or not Backpage was actually a bad actor, but that's... |
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... | because oh, there's so much of this online, which is really just like. |
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... | Now people are actually cataloging it in order to help block it. And it feels like that voluntary effort to help block this material is now being turned against the plot. |
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... | I'll note that at least one of the co-sponsors of the bill, which is Lindsey Graham, is up for election this year again, which might explain some of his enthusiasm for this. |
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... | very bad bill. But that's... I think that's certainly, that could certainly be a part of it. |
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... | that old saw of there's this problem, right? There's been CSAM material on the internet for as long as there's been internet. And with this or with any other problem. |
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... | if everybody is telling them this is a terrible idea this isn't going to fix the problem that you're solving it could make a lot of other problems worse um there's this in the sense |
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... | as you say to be seen doing something, especially if you're up for reelection. And, you know, I think it's kind of helpful, really, to try and get outside of... |
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... | possibly think this is good, that this is a good idea. But I'm not some grandma in South Carolina who is. |
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... | I think you know has this effect of kind of turning off rational thought and discussion and it makes it so much more difficult for politicians to stand up and say wait a sec |
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... | and I don't think I can go along with this, precisely because they are then opened up to the extremely easy response of how can you possibly be against protecting the children. |
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... | And so the fact that the earn it bill was so controversial earlier, I think the managers amendments, all the changes that were made, and in particular the lay amendment. |
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... | regarding some attempt to protect encryption, are ways to make this terrible bill seem more palatable in order to give a lot of members who might not want to f- |
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... | like it carves encryption out of the bill. There are concerns as to how accurate that is. Do you want to describe kind of what the Leahy amendment says and what it does and where the concerns are? |
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-... | So if we think of section 230 as this immunity, and we think of the earn it bill as a carve out from that immunity, the latest |
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... | at Stanford, Daphne Keller, and now we have the earn it bill as sort of the latest where there's these attempts to rein in the bad stuff on the internet. |
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... | telling the providers that they need to censor and remove much more speech than is necessary. The effect of these laws has been and the effect of the urn. |
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... | The only part of the Ernant Act that I sort of unequivocally welcome is the biggest chunk of the bill actually, which is just to go do a find and replace throughout federal law to take |
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... | out the term child pornography and replace it with child sexual abuse material. That's fine with me. I have no problem with that. But everything else about it is a dumpster fire. |
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... | And we've had some studies, you know, I believe we've seen Eric Goldman blog about this. We've seen Hacking Hustling, which is Sex Workers Rights Group. |
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... | was entirely replaced by a new version from Senators Graham and Blumenthal that is actually quite different. It has some similarities but is really kind of a different bill. While it's still |
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... | the Urnit Act. It's just a random set of recommendations by people who might not necessarily be the best place to be making such recommendations. However, in place of that, they've taken the fo- |
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... | to CSAM lawsuit. So it's unclear what problem is actually being solved here. But an even bigger issue is that the whole structure of the original bill was that we needed |
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... | encryption, and there are worries at least that we'd be looking at years of litigation to figure that out. Oh, and there's also a whole different rabbit hole to... |
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... | There's much, much more to discuss in all of this, but I've been hogging the microphone for too long when we have a real expert here to discuss all of this. |
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... | Rihanna Pfefferkorn is the Associate Director of Surveillance and Cybersecurity at the Stanford Center for Internet and Society and has been one of the most thoughtful and vocal chroniclers. |
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... | of the problems of the Urnit Act, and so she is here to explain this whole mess to us. Welcome to the program. |
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... | act. So do you want to give, let's start with maybe a high level summary of what are your concerns with the latest version of the bill. |
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... | and that it just strips immunity under section 230 for C.Sama fences full stop. And it's akin to this long line of bills that are aimed at... |
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... | this earlier in the discussion, but I think it's a good point to sort of close out on. |
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... | We talk about technology and we talk about the technology industry. And I think one of the things that's becoming clear right now is that it's almost weird to talk about the technology. |
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... | important in the context of cities and how we think about the growth of cities and workforce development and jobs, you know. |
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... | Thanks for having me. I could sit and talk to you forever about this stuff. |
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... | Yes, yes, yes, and it is great to talk to you again. |
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... | Have you back on the podcast more often? We should |
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... | I would look forward to that. |
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... | Hello, and welcome to the TechTurt podcast, I'm Mike Masnik. |
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... | the Act all the time, and I regret to inform you that this week will be no different, though I will say that I am working to line up a few non-section 230 guests as well. |
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... | to section 230 in a while, which also has the bonus awfulness of initially being presented as an attack on end-to-end encryption as well. This is the Ernest. |
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... | which is what used to be called child porn. And if sites followed those best practices, they could still enjoy Section 230 protections. |
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-... | true when parties change whose empower in the normal circumstance. |
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... | So if we've got changes in the halls of power, I think that |
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... | I think you'll see all kinds of things change, and I think it'll be incredibly interesting. |
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... | I think that people who think about this stuff from a policy point of view or from a political point of view, |
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... | time getting ready for that. |
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... | I'm getting ready for that moment, because it's gonna be quick. |
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... | So, you know, we'll see how that plays itself out. All right, hi. |
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... | less optimistic if we don't get a change in D.S. But then honestly... |
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... | Yes, and you would not be alone in that viewpoint. No. Yeah. |
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... | of, you know, it could go in a weird and not necessarily great direction too, and I've certainly seen some policy proposals. |
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... | come out recently that I've been sort of aghast, I mean. |
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... | protection for that. But, you know, we see those proposed. |
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... | And yeah, one other, I mean, I'm sure in other conversations, all the voting stuff and the role technology is going to play there too. |
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... | to make sure it doesn't sit around on a server any longer than it needs to. Kind of pretty basic stuff. |
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... | talking about saving lives. |
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... | really save lives or get kids into schools or you know get get |
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... | wipe out an entire category or an entire concept just because of, you know, a theoretical privacy concern. And I think... |
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... | mentioned in there that you know the way you deal with that often is transparency. |
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... | choice frankly right I mean letting people know what is happening and why and how it's being used and for how long this is |
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