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... | I think we know well enough. |
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... | yeah alright well i know you're not a millennial but anyway uh... but we do know |
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... | You need to be thinking about this. |
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... | and thinking about how you need to... |
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... | And of course, this podcast, if... |
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... | Thanks for hanging out. We're doing a special Friday. |
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... | free data storage and email that I can keep basically a billion terabytes worth of stuff in. It does provide conditions under which. |
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... | copyrighted material. It's always going to be a general use technology that, you know, in the words of Ania de Franco, any tool is a weapon if you hold it right. |
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... | Right, so the lawful access to encrypted data bill. |
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... | or lead or however it's supposed to be said. |
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... | when the market was happening last Thursday, look, that's a discussion for another day. This is not an encryption bill, we'll talk about that another day. |
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... | and sort of put paid to that promise because he's the one who introduced this bill just a couple of days before the markup was scheduled to happen in late June. |
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... | information to law enforcement agencies such as the task force for internet crimes against children to be able to act on NICMIC reports, to be able to act on... |
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... | act on the many millions of reports that already are reported by providers every year, where one of the complaints is, look, a lot of times |
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... | those reports go stale and by the time somebody can get around to it, given that NICMIC is super overwhelmed and understaffed and given that a lot of the local task forces and |
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... | of funding per year to try and provide these IT solutions. It doesn't look like much by comparison to the Wyden bill, which in addition to- |
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-... | all of that proactive what if we looked at housing justice and housing instability would also say what if we tried to create more staffing |
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... | for Nickmicks so that it's not just a tiny team of people who are trying to handle tens of millions of reports per year, but one page. |
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... | which doesn't really come off looking too good after Wyden introduced a bill that had five billion dollars attached to it. Right. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Which is... ... |
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... | Quite a lot, but yeah, I mean it is interesting and this is this is obviously a much bigger problem how much of |
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... | by changing the incentives or punishing a handful of major online service providers. Not only will you still have dark websites... |
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... | and services that are completely devoted to CSAM, which do not care that they are already violating the law, which never qualified for Section 230 immunity in the first place because, as you said, early on... |
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... | not obey any of these laws. That's the whole point. When you are an illegal website, it doesn't matter to you what new laws get passed. And so, you know, even if there were a time |
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... | It was seeming to grow worse. I don't think that you can hang that entirely on tech companies, and therefore you cannot hang the fix also entirely on tech companies either. Yeah. Yeah. |
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... | And so it's a blame the messenger kind of situation, right? Right? I think it is worth saying, you know that Were it not for these large easy to use? |
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... | allegedly, and that's how that piece of material got caught, and that's how it got prosecuted. Well, the provider is an agent of the state. And the court so far has said, no, no, no, it's fallen. |
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... | of state laws that it exposes provides liability for violating, then those arguments could pick up traction and we could start seeing the opposite results starting to come out. And you know. |
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... | those are the stakes there. And I think that when it comes to crafting policy, there's always some risk that the courts are going to interpret it in a way that you didn't. |
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... | But it seems like just such an unforced error, not only on the Fourth Amendment issue, but also on the First Amendment issue. These people should know better. You have... |
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... | to fight a couple years ago, but going all the way back to the Communications Decency Act, you know, back in the 90s, we've been here before. We've seen |
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... | sort of out and just don't waste all of our time in the first place, you know? I would love to basically put my own self out of a... |
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... | job here. I focus on encryption policy in my role at Stanford. And I wish that I didn't need to have this job, but they just won't. |
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... | the fact that we're talking about all the ways that this might backfire and actually make going after those responsible for CSAM more difficult by suppressing the evidence. The other. |
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... | for many years and Congress required the DOJ to come up with a bunch of reports and plans on how to fight CSAM. |
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... | has basically not done it. It is, you know, there were a bunch of reports that it was required to deliver and that it just ignored. And they've done very li- |
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... | itself. So a lot of this bill, which is in part being pushed for by the Attorney General and the Justice Department, seems to be to cover up their |
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... | own fattlings to actually do what they're supposed to do. And that's why, like, there is this alternative bill that Senator Wyden put out, which basically is to throw a bunch of money. |
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... | Let's take a look at trying to address the factors that underlie what leads... |
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... | for years and that still make the rounds in these forums, but also to stop new abuse from happening. And if you can ameliorate the conditions that allow that. |
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... | would be the state law that would potentially be converting a provider into an agent of the state and result in suppression. And if we, as you said, see providers adopting |
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... | that kind of measure nationwide in order to comply with the most aggressive state law, then I don't know that that would even be limited just to, you know... |
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... | prosecutions just within that particular state. So it could potentially still have this mass backfiring Fourth Amendment bomb in it, even though they've yanked out the language that |
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... | problem out of that too, out of the remaining incentives. But I think this state law issue is a big one. And it goes back to why we have in |
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... | some theory under which there's still a problem. Let's throw that at the wall and see what sticks. The stakes here are that the government is willing to go to court and see... |
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... | evidence of child abuse suppressed and see these offenders go free because they're saying well we think we fixed it that's good enough let's let's take a gamble that's what the stakes |
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... | scan and monitor and filter everything else. And that brings us back to the same Fourth Amendment problem that the original version of the bill had, and which I think... |
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... | could still be present by devolving it to the states in this version. And the Fourth Amendment issue for those playing along at home is the principle... |
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-... | allow the government to undertake any action through that cutout that it could not do directly itself. And one thing that the state is just flatly prohibited from doing is war- |
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-... | And so if you are warrantlessly searching everybody's contents at all times, and you are an agent of the state rather than a private provider. |
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... | prosecution brought against somebody who emailed C. Sam to himself or stored it in a Dropbox folder, whatever, the risk that |
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... | and therefore we're going to throw that evidence out. And if the prosecution is just premised on that stuff that gets thrown out of court and can't be as evidence, then that means |
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-... | that the people who are doing these worst of the worst crimes walk free and thus that's the risk that this Fourth Amendment State actor problem would pose that the Urnit Act could end up backf- |
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... | be stripped of immunity and exposed to liability if you didn't, that's the carrot and the stick. You mentioned that that's gone. And I think that in the manager's amendment that's intentional as a way to try to address |
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... | by devolving that to the states under their state laws if there are states such as Illinois or such as South Carolina where they have |
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... | reasonable inspection, recklessness standard. If you were put to this choice of Encrypt-Adal and monitor and filter everything, then it would |
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... | is cracked up to be in terms of protecting encryption. It's like, okay, great, now you have the right to defend your use of encryption. And one other... |
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... | something that you can see coming down the pipe. And so, you know, when you're talking especially about large providers, which let's face it, are the people most able due to their deep f- |
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... | pockets to weather any changes in 230, even though those bills are so often clearly aimed at just trying to stick it to the, you know, five biggest companies. Um, it, it, I |
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... | It does mean that, you know, I think if you are a smaller provider, you might or might not be making changes to improve your encryption. If you... |
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... | think it could open you up to liability. And the primary worry in this area seems to be about states. And you, I think, have talked a bit in your. |
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... | for us to discuss, because I think it's an interesting one. Yeah, I mean, so there's a few different elements there, right? So part of what the law does, and I'm going to try and do this without going too deep into the. |
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... | weeds because it just gets so weird and complex. But like, it does open up the the the the different state laws. |
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... | pointed out in my post is that if you choose not to go and encrypt everything, the standards in the bill and some of the state laws will |
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... | in an unfortunate situation where sites feel the need to verify every one of their users. And, you know, no more anonymous signups, no more, you know, |
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... | non real names and in fact it might be to the level of we need to see your driver's license or some sort of identification in order to sign up and therefore |
MSP-PODCAST_2393_0155.wav | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 3 | N | 480 | Male | MSP-PODCAST_2393_0155.wav | 0 | 5,400 | [
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... | the end result of this is not only will they not be using encryption in those cases, they'll be collecting a ton of personal data and at a time when more and more... |
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