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**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** So what they discovered was actually that even though just visualizing didn't build the same amount of strength in the thumb without doing the actual thing, it still did. It still did...! |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[08:06\] I'm so hopeful... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** There's something I'm doing right now; if I'm doing it, I am gonna be amazing. I'll tell you why in a second or two. Continue... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** \[laughs\] Well, that's the beauty of habits, and being able to change them... Because if you can identify the certain cue that's going to make you default into running that play, welcome to the payout. So whatever we do, muscles will be built; we're going to repeat the things that we prac... |
I've heard a story once about some guy who went over to his neighbors and he was fixing his lawnmower, or something... And he was like "Oh, better you than me. I'm just not very good." And just without any hesitation, the guy is like "That's just because you don't practice. You just don't wanna do it." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Oh, dang...! Burn!! \[laughter\] |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** We all make these choices around how much dividends it's going to pay, and dopamine is at the heart of that. So imagine you're gonna get a kickback. Your brain is gonna be like "Ooo, that feels good every time I do that behavior, because it feels good to me. It doesn't have to feel good to... |
So we have to learn -- everybody has a habit they don't like, right? How do I then change it? How do I modify bad habits I don't want? I have to repeal and replace. I have to acknowledge that there's a habit that isn't working well for me, and then look at how I'm going to rope in, how do I tether in a feel-good? Becau... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. It's what you know, it's what you trust, it's easy, you've done it 1,000 or more, whatever... So it's what you know. It's comfortable. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** And the familiarity. It is, and this is comfort. You've got it. Because I'm gonna repeat, even if intellectually I can be like "That's not good for me. I really shouldn't do that", but my brain is still gonna be like "But remember...?! Remember that time you felt good? Here, I will give yo... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yes... My gosh, that is actually my inner dialogue.. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What you've just said there is literally my inner dialogue. It's kind of funny, because we will choose that comfort, and we'll even rationalize to ourselves in the moment. Like you've just said, you don't wanna do this for all these reasons, however it's okay because we've done it before, or it's ok... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. A lot of people will look at this in terms of healthy habits. Be it exercise, eating habits, but also relationships. It's hard to break relationships. I always give the visual picture of the energy ball at the science museum; when you put your hand on it, all of the electricity goes ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, I love that thing. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** And so in all of our life, we're going to repeat things... It's like, whenever the energy is, no matter what. So if I can acknowledge that in some way, whatever I'm doing pays, then I can go "Alright, how do I hack it? How do I create an interrupt?" And interestingly, the way in which we h... |
\[12:07\] So if it's in relationship, I'm always reacting, or I tend to yell when I don't want to yell. Or procrastination; I tend to put off, like "I know, I know it's not gonna pay to put this off, but it feels better right now to not do it." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yes... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** I have to go "Alright, how else might I imagine still getting some hit of dopamine, some feel-good from doing the less desirable behavior?" And the key is I have to look at what's literally going to pay for me. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That could be as easy as just making a list and the initial interference is the list, and the reward is completing the list. If you wanna change a habit, sometimes just making yourself a list and completing a list is enough of an accomplishment, right? Because you wanna have some sort of positive th... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah, some of it is. Whatever we're putting off, it feels - because feelings also play a role in this - more aversive to us in the moment, so that's why always looking at what you don't wanna look at. I am going to just start by looking at that thing that feels overwhelming. So be it laund... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** So now I'm building strength. I wanna talk about some caveats to this, because I wish it were that easy and simple... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** But it's not. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** No. Well, one thing I wanna talk about - there's a social component to habits. This is also why they're harder to break. If I'm hanging around with a group of people who do things, do behaviors that I don't wanna practice, guess what I'm more likely to do? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You're gonna be influenced by them. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Correct. Not because of desire... But if we take this whole sense of habit formation and put it way to the extreme, this would look like addiction. Be it I'm addicted to cigarettes, or I am addicted to alcohol, or any other more benign thing... But it's harder to quit when our friend group... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** I mean, I live in a predominant military community, and I don't think it's this way anymore, but once upon a time you got more breaks if you smoked when you were working on a ship. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's true. Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right? And so not only do you get a break from your job, but guess what you're doing? You're hanging out with other people. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. You're mingling... It's the watercooler. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah! And we don't wanna lose out on that, because that too pays. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, why would you wanna quit smoking whenever that's your buddy time, that's your hangout time...? |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** \[16:06\] Exactly. So looking at going "Okay, in what way am I getting a hit of social connection when I do this habit?" I can talk about it from a more aversive standpoint, like looking at it from people who are fearful of or overwhelmed by going into the weight room in a gym. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I bet you about several thousand hands went up just now. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. Well, if you 1) are going for the first time, you don't hang out in the gym often, and 2) you're not where you want to be from a health standpoint, and then you add in "I'm unfamiliar, so I'm going to look less than intelligent, or less than competent in that setting", I've already g... |
So I'm not going to then be prone to be like "Yeah, I think I'll go work out in a gym where everyone can watch me. I'm on display, I don't know what I'm doing, and hi, you can see too I'm not where I wanna be health-wise." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, so much discomfort there, a lot of assumptions too about what other people are thinking... Because they're probably thinking the same thing. "Is he/she looking at me, judging me?" And then you've got this shame involved... How you feel about yourself is on reflection, big time... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** But this is why if you're like "Okay, so then would it pay more for me to adopt some other healthier habits, like exercise, in the comfort of my home, where I run interference with that obstacle? ...or what if I join a training group that's looking at doing a triathlon, or a 10k? Or I enli... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. That's why I like your idea of embedding the routine portion of it. You've got your cue... So to recap the mechanics of a habit - you've got your cue, you have this playbook that plays, this routine, and then as a result of all that you have a reward. So that's the ongoing system of a habit. ... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Correct. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Embedding this change you wanna do into something else. On the note of health and fitness, one thing I've done to be more -- because my hand went up when you mentioned hitting gyms; I don't really care for gyms. And it's not because I don't like them, it's just I feel on display, uncomfortable etc. ... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So now I'm far more fit today that I had been in the last several years because I'm habitually motivated by going out and mountain biking, and that's a very high-fitness -- you know, sometimes group activity, too. But it's not the gym. But I'm getting very similar physical activity. So that's one ha... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right, but you hacked it. And I would say the social component for you might be other people outside of your family, but also your family. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** So you're just loading on that dopamine, the rewards system, that's like "I'm doing something that's good for me, that's good for my family. It has far-reaching implications." So in that case, you don't have to have this whole jury trial about whether or not you're gonna exercise today... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right, yeah. |
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