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**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Conditioning is really this notion of how we learn. You might hear people talk about it in terms of punishment or reinforcement, and basically that just means "Do I want a behavior to occur more frequently, or do I want a behavior to occur less frequently?" I could say "I would prefer that... |
With adults, conditioning might look like that positive feeling... Because feelings are always a part too of the feedback process. |
\[04:14\] I can have an interaction with a person, or go have an experience that was very favorable, like camping, or traveling to a certain place... I think a lot of families and individuals will tend to repeat a certain vacation place or idea because it's paid a positive emotional response when they do it. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's like the studies you hear where the animal - it could be a rat, it could be a monkey, or something like that... Where they're testing them. I saw this thing recently on a show on YouTube; I forget what's it's called. I think it's called Mindfield. And it was about these apes that had really ama... |
And it's almost like those studies where you see those kinds of things happen, or where you see a rat go to get a drink of water, but gets shocked instead, and says "Well, I'm never going back to that water trough again..." Is it kind of like that? |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** This feedback loop of like good things or bad things happen, and so therefore you learn to adapt or relate? |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah... Bearing in mind that, again, we are designed to feel, that our feelings also play a fundamental role in the conditioning process. So if I have an experience that creates positive feelings, that part of my brain is going to consolidate that experience, and sort of bank that to remem... |
So whenever we're in a relationship - this is another thing that I think is super-interesting - is because feelings are involved, that means empathy is also involved. Because when I empathize with another person, what it is is that I actually have a sense of understanding of their experience from their perspective, not... |
I can look in and say that somebody might not be struggling with math, or somebody might not have a hard time with exercise, because, well, I don't. But that doesn't mean it's true for all people. |
So when I'm in relationship with other people, it fares a lot better when I can practice setting my own perspective aside, and being willing to move or maneuver, that I could see their experience through their lens. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. I think it's important too to remind those listening to this why relationships truly matter to us, and that's because part of who we are is because of part of our relationship. Our mind and who we think we are is formed based on these interpersonal relationships. Whether they're strong, whethe... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** \[07:58\] Yeah. Connection is key when it comes to being human. When I talk about the brain, and sort of thinking of it in terms of three brains in one, because the different structures in our brain are synonymous with (or similar to) other animals, like reptiles, mammals... And then what ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Really? |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Is that humans too, or do you mean any mammal that feeds their young with milk? |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** No, this was just done with humans, so I can't speak to other mammals. But for humans - which is fascinating, because oxytocin is a neurochemical that is sort of like our stress-reducing, positive emotion giving neurochemical, which is why it's super-adaptive for moms when they're feeding ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Wow. So how does that play into relationships then? Obviously, a child who's been in the womb for potentially nine months or more, depending upon the pregnancy, that they come out - they're in a whole new, foreign world. That's where they connect with their parent. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yes, precisely. So there's a lot more talk about, around, and research on that skin-to-skin contact with mother and infant, immediate or primary caregiver; any person, human being, immediately following birth, because of the power of that attachment and how that actually helps the infant i... |
I think about this with adults - when we have someone we care about who is ill and possibly in the hospital, I would say where do you wanna be? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right next to them. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Exactly. So when we experience pain or hardship, we are apt to look for the connection. It doesn't mean that we get to opt out of the pain, but just knowing that we don't have to endure it all alone is critical. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What about how relationships play into this notion of neuroplasticity? ...being able to reform and reshape parts of your brain. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Well, it's interesting that the research talks about that the first year of life - and some will say first couple of years of life - tends to be more right-brain development for infants... Which is ironically more of the emotional side of our brain. Always when we talk about the brain, we ... |
So when we talk about neuroplasticity, there's a way in which having another human with you actually facilitates more of the growth of those neural networks for infants and early toddlers. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[12:21\] Well, I've been doing a little research - not a ton, so I'm not vested or really up on this research, but there's also talks about... We've talked about putting your lid on before you've mentioned that, and this prefrontal cortex not even being fully formed until your mid-twenties. So when... |
Even when you go back to relationships and empathy, we have to realize that there are moments in people's lives up until the age of 25 where they may not have a fully developed, functioning brain. Sure, they've got the brain all there, but there's parts that are still in formation. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right. Yeah, this is why even right now, with kids in sports, there's so much research around brain injury. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Oh, really...? |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Well, protecting the younger brains. My son, at his age, for soccer, they're not allowed to do headers, because the brain is still developing and it's just more vulnerable to injury, so we just wanna be protective of that. |
When it comes to the brains, we want to have other people -- I would say as a parent we're sort of acting as the frontal lobe for our kids. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right, yeah. Good point. I like that concept a lot, actually. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah, so I think about it like scaffolding; as our kids grow -- and it doesn't matter, I just always want people to have this sense of hope and optimism around like "Look, it's not over if you didn't get it in childhood, or didn't fully grow. Neuroplasticity is one of the most amazing and ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. Let's also say - we're using children as an example here, because for the audience to empathize with us, that's our breeding ground for research, basically. I can give an example where my son -- I can't recall the exact scenario, but there was a moment where I said to my wife "Hey, it's not t... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So that moment we both sort of just crawled into ourselves and just cuddled him, and were just loving to him, rather than "Why can't you get this?! Come on, threenager! Do this!", you know what I mean? So our breeding ground and research is our children. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah, exactly. In my line of work I will see the people where this sense of attachment and connection and feedback loop didn't go so well. I always say it's sort of like they jury rig things. They learned how to best function in their lives, as well as they could, but we know this whenever... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[16:11\] I'd like to earmark that too for future habit formation and breaking conversations we have around the whole -- you know, the cue, the response, the reward etc. Because that reminds me of habits even; this short-circuiting, this jury-rigging, as you're mentioning. It's almost like you're ma... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** No, no. In fact -- so part of how we've developed this awareness of attachment and connection actually came out of research with nonverbal kiddos, early age, like 18-month(ish). And what they did was they had caregivers even these kids try to engage with, just like facial expression... Bec... |
So what these kiddos would do is -- what they instructed the people interfacing with these kids to do is to be flat, and not actually provide any visual or verbal cues of engagement with the child. What would happen is that their level of distress would ratchet up, and ratchet up, and ratchet up, until they'd stop cryi... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Wow. I don't know about you, but a lot of times I think my children have done things just to get a response. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. So if we can look at relationships and how we function in our world through this lens of conditioning and go "What was reinforced? What feedback did we get when we were upset? Did our parents comfort us? Did they just hold us?" The power of touch - I cannot attest to enough that when... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So when you see somebody who's really hurting, you're like "Just give me a hug." |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Because you have arms wrapped around you, somebody else's warmth... Some things obviously happening in your brain around serotonin levels and different stuff being increased to provide that relaxation... All these things give ourselves indications that we're safe. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Correct, so it reinforces that "I'm not alone" and that "I have a team." I have a group of people who I can go to as resources, that will help ease whatever pain I'm in." It doesn't mean that I totally feel all better and now I can just go do whatever and I'm not sad, hurt or angry, like I... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[19:39\] So when you're an individual, some people -- we talked about conditioning; when they're conditioned to retract, conditioned to isolate themselves from others, in the end they're just trying to cope with whatever the issue might be, but they're also hurting themselves, because individuals i... |
What I'm trying to really get at is that for those who think "Oh, I'm an individual. I've got it, I don't need anybody. I don't need your help, I don't need feedback loop from anybody. I'm cool on my own", in the moment you may actually get by, but in the long-term what's the effect...? |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right. I mean, think of that sort of like playing defense. That's actually more defensive than an offensive move, because we are fundamentally designed to be connected... So thinking about it back when we didn't have the resources we have today, that we can just go down the street where ot... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, it's true. |
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