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EmoDom
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transcript
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N
3.4
3.6
3.2
1,391
Female
Train
at supreme court to prevent that kind of thing from happening, but worth keeping an eye on.yeah.but, because in that case it was like, "hey, we're"-
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A
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in search of a crime," and, "hey, this guy who's in an interesting location, meaning boeing, is married to a chinese citizen..."
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H
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right.yeah.or probable cause of an agent of a foreign power.right.and they kept going back and forth between the two.yeah. and so, i mean-
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N
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the authorities and the constitution, they shouldn't be able to get.right. and the way in which it works because of the technology and because the geography of all this right now is-
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N
3.2
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if something gets shut down, or if it becomes inconvenient to deal with, the fisa court... oh, because the other place it's going to go, i said it was going to go to 702-
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A
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the other place it's going to go is 12333. and it's the same thing, there's even less review there.right. and-than there is if you're going to google, and so both of-
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N
3.8
3.4
4
1,391
Female
Train
there's probably less review of it going on now.
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N
3.6
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1,391
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and to be alive. but i think... so congress is very reluctant to do this, because they're afraid they're going to get beat up-
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A
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on doing it. but they've kind of picked at the edges of doing it. the problem is in 2017-
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H
3.8
3.2
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1,391
Female
Train
the point of the last things barack obama did before authoritarian donald trump and crazy man took over was to give the fbi and cia in any-
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N
3.2
3.8
4
1,391
Female
Train
the other agencies who can come up with a good reason for it to give them access to 12333 to limit amounts of 12333 data. but they could say, "hey, you know"-
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H
3.6
3
3.6
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Train
"i'm sure in the russian investigation fbi called up nsa and said, 'hey, we're investigating oleg deripaska, can you give us all your data on oleg deripaska?" and you know, got sent-
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N
3.6
3.4
3.6
1,391
Female
Train
over to fbi.right.and there are good reasons for that, but there's not enough review of that data and how it's used in my opinion. and-
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H
3.4
3.6
3.4
1,391
Female
Train
and as we have this discussion about 215 this year-
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H
3.8
3.4
3.6
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Female
Train
that should be part of the conversation. and frankly, part of the conversation should be what i said before, which is that once you have material support, you should not need national secure-
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X
4
3.4
4
1,391
Female
Train
i actually had, i won't say who it was, but i had a very senior former intelligence person tell me last year that he thought we should start rebuilding the wall.
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H
3.6
3.6
3.4
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Female
Train
mm-hmm (affirmative)he thought that given what you can do with people with these national... because the other thing about fisa is they're going to use authorities under fisa-
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H
3.2
3.2
3.2
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Female
Train
that they're not going to use in a criminal warrant.right.because a criminal warrant, the defendant is ultimately going to get to see what kind of say hacking you did of their phone on a national security warrant they're not going to-
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F
2.833333
3.333333
2
1,391
Female
Train
get to see that. and so they're going to do far more aggressive things on a fisa order then they are on a criminal warrant and-
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A
5.833333
1.666667
6.166667
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Female
Train
even this really hawkish guy said, "maybe we should start rebuilding the wall." so... and that should be where the discussion goes this year is we reauthorize-
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A
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so the deal, because we know that parts of it got shut down, is first trying to force government into telling us what happened. telling us how they got the 500 million records-
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H
4
3.4
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Train
what went wrong, why did you shut it down? and do you really need this authority anyway? the government always says, "we don't want to say we don't need the authority, we want to have a means of turning back on"-
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H
3.6
3.8
3.6
1,391
Female
Train
"once we can find a way to do it." but honestly, through this entire phone drag net period, the entire one...
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A
5.166667
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Train
it has never proved to be...
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H
3.8
3.4
3.6
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Female
Train
critically important.right.and as i pointed out, we are in a point where it's crystal clear that white supremacist terror is just as dangerous to this country as isis.
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A
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is, if not more. and the fbi, they don't have a perfect record, but they have a pretty good record at cracking down on that kind of terrorism-
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N
4
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without the same authorities that they have with isis.right.and if they can do it with white supremacist terrorists without invoking what they should invoke, which is it is an international-
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F
2.4
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network at this point, but they're not doing that. in fact, they're doing far less of this network analysis than they are even for other kinds of domestic-
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H
3.4
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terrorists. but if they're successful without doing that, then maybe the fact is we don't need to network all of the muslims in the united states and the-
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H
3.2
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i mean, there are people like aoc and rashida tlaib, and then there are the several former cia officers all on the democratic side. so we don't-
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A
6
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know what it's going to look like in the house for one, and frankly, the freedom caucus has always been real allies on this issue but they've gone kind of crazy.
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U
5.833333
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Train
that's an understatement.right. my congressman is justin amash, and i think he would even... maybe not say that, but he would acknowledge that the freedom caucus-yes.
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H
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3.2
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right. it's certainly on other issues, like authorizing the wall.yeah.but yeah, so we don't know what's up with the freedom caucus. we don't know what's up with the new democrats-
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U
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and it's a weird time in the senate, too.yep.so, because again it's a weird time. donald trump does crazy things to everybody.yeah.
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S
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lot of work to make those documents secure...
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S
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security risk to continue to operate them. and the intercept isn't making all the money-
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H
3.4
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to be released. and that's what i think the intercept... and people don't give the intercept a lot of credit for the extent to which they did this. that's what the intercept did a really good faith effort-
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H
3.4
3
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Train
to keep that those documents safe and accessible, but not too accessible. and that cost a lot of money.yeah.and so as they've described it, they're going to-
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H
3.6
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3.8
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Train
stop doing that. and glen has said he's looking for a new place to host it. and that new place is going to have to be willing to take on-
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A
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like if you move it to a university, right?right.it can't be like a library, where anyone can go in and check out the books. because-
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N
3.2
3.6
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Train
everyone...
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N
3.8
3.6
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so i would've loved, starting in 2014, to use the archive as a counterpart to all my opensource work on how are they using surveillance? and like i said in-
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N
3.8
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Train
2017 there were a number of stories. i mean, just as one example...
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even if it wasn't, it didn't actually involve you.yeah. although they still were just targeting on signifiers, on selectors.sure.so for example, it might be that you forward-
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an email from me and they find my email, which is technically content of your email.sure. right.or it might be that you send somebody an email-
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[inaudible 00:07:46] say, "call marcy at 7:34, blah, blah, blah."right.and so that's the kind of things they were collecting. and they claimed that that was picking-
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H
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up a lot of americans who were not otherwise targeted.
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i believe that the solution of shutting down about collection and then permitting backdoor searches on 702 data, this is all complex, but basically once-
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you get the data, the nsa and especially the fbi will go back and look at it.right.and if you've collected on people who aren't targeted, who aren't in communication with somebody who's targeted, then-
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you're collecting on a lot of innocent people. and then this data should not be available to you.[crosstalk 00:08:30]. right.you're basically getting free content. but i made an argument-
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and so one of the things that i was trying to demonstrate in 2007 is the way in which they were targeting ip addresses.right.
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again, read that google thing for michael cohen [inaudible 00:08:47].yeah.terrify you. and the idea is... but i think people haven't adequately thought through what the implications of-
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H
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them being able to target ip addresses are in this day and age.right. okay so-and...
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A
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people to have that background, because it is a frustrating state of affairs that the archive... so i never did that work. i never did the work to say-
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here is what it means that 702 can target an ip address and not just emails.right.and i kind of give up in 2017-
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and now i've lost my chance.right.and so that is not just historical, it's important to help people explain the technical aspects of this-
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N
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spying, and that never was sufficiently done with the archive. and i think that's unfortunate. so i hope it does get a new home, but i do want people to understand that-
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the fbi treating the intercept like they're themselves suspect.right.just because they have a certain approach to journalism, which oh by the way, the new york times and washington post have.
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matched. right. but the fbi still treats the intercept as uniquely suspect because they're doing journalism. and so, you know, that's, that's the world we're in and
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and, and as glen tries to find a new home for that archive, understand that he's got a challenge ahead of him because it is not an easy task to do
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hello and welcome to the techdirt podcast. i'm mike masnick. the world is increasingly technological. so we have better get methodical.
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oh, i think one of the best descriptions i've heard about the difference in views between dc and the valley was one that when i first heard it initially struck me as completely backwards and,
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this explained what he meant more thoroughly, and it began to make some more sense. his argument was that when there's a problem in the world, people in dc tend to look at it as,
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as a challenge to create a single legislative solution, one big act to solve the one big problem forever. and then they move on and,
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day to day is focused on experimentation, data, results and iteration. when thought about that way, it actually made a lot more sense to me and made me wonder why we,
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we don't do more of that kind of work in government. and so of course, i know that some of the answer to that is, is simply politics,
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that don't get covered by cable news and talk radio. it does seem like we could take the more iterative approach found in silicon valley and apply it to governments, both big,
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and small. now someone who has thought an awful lot about this, i think is jennifer pahlka who founded and runs code for america. the san francisco based nonprofit,
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days is delivery driven government, which is her very smart approach to the problem that i just described in the intro, which is how do we get governments to know if,
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what they're doing is actually working so that they can iterate and improve and provide better services to the public that they're supposed to be serving. so the question is, can we,
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create something that is more akin to the way software development works in government? so jen, welcome to the podcast.
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thank you. i'm so delighted to be here and thanks for that great and very thoughtful setup. and i'll play that bingo game with you anytime you want.yes. i'm sure it will be a lot of fun,
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H
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now, since you've had feet in both of these worlds, do you think that that framing is accurate? that that is really the way,
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a that that, that government people look at things versus silicon valley people?
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i think it's largely accurate though, i will say i've had the request from people in silicon valley just as often that,
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do like one product will ship that will change everything roughly.
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driven. what is, what does that tend to look like in your experience?
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? yeah, that's a good question. so we work with local governments. we also then started working with a lot of counties and now we work with a lot of states because a lot of,
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what's really like the big glaring problem are these giant government programs that are actually delivered by states,
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H
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and often, especially in california, where we do some, but not all of our work, the states then devolve it to the count, the devolved administration of the program to the counties. and so,
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part of what we are talking about is not so much like the application of technology to a problem, but more the ability to smartly use,
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use technology and other sources to get the data and insights that you need to know what's working and what's not. and i mean, this sort of speaks to your setup,
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a little bit.it really isn't sort of one big thing. it's we don't know what's going on for users of a particular program at any given time. and so we don't,
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actually know what's working and what's not. let me bring that like a little bit more into reality and give you an example.sure.
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before we put up our site called getcclfresh.org, which you can go to. and if you know anybody who needs a little bit of help with food and, and might qualify,
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H
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for the program, please send them there, but you can also just go test it out. so, so if you go there, you'll see that essentially it's a very streamlined,
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3.6
1,354
Female
Train
experience. we then can text message with you after you hit submit and make sure you get all the rest of the pieces together so that you get from that point where you hit the app,
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S
2
3
2
1,354
Female
Train
all and doesn't really allow you easily to upload your documents.so you had an enormous number of people who needed the benefit, but if,
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A
5.5
1.333333
6.166667
1,354
Female
Train
they couldn't make it into an office and wait for an hour in line and wanted to do this online. they really had very few options because it didn't,
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H
3.2
3.8
3.8
1,354
Female
Train
work on mobile. so it's been a lovely opportunity to sort of show that a better front door to a program using sort of, you know, it's not fancy technology, it's just,
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N
3.6
3.8
3.6
1,354
Female
Train
so the, the front door is better, but what's a lot better is the fact that when we're text messaging with our users over time, we actually know what's wrong with each county as,
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U
5.666667
5.166667
5.666667
1,354
Female
Train
is it, is it doing the operations of its program? so tons of people hit go on the application. they actually are eligible, but things like they need,
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N
3.6
3.8
3.8
1,354
Female
Train
need to do an interview over the phone to qualify well, the interview letters get sent out, telling people that they're going to get a call on tuesday at two, but it reaches them.
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H
3.4
3.4
3.2
1,354
Female
Train
actually another good example is a lot of times the call that comes in from the county office is flagged as a spam call. well, you're not going to pick up a spam,
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H
3.8
3.8
3.6
1,354
Female
Train
call. so you miss that interview and you start over at the beginning of the process all over again, and that kind of data and insights about what's actually,
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H
3.4
3.4
3.4
1,354
Female
Train
of the program. so that's really what we're advocating for is the use of technology in a very lightweight, but human centered way to understand how program,
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A
5.333333
2
5.5
1,354
Female
Train
work and how they don't work. and it really matters in california for example, you would think that , you know, silicon valley would be great at getting people signed up for a government,
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H
3.8
3.8
3.8
1,354
Female
Train
a program. and we think that that can happen like at much greater scale.
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H
4
3
3
480
Male
Train
yeah. well, one of the things that i'm sure people wonder is, you know, why does it take, you know, a, a third party organization like,
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N
3
4
3
480
Male
Train
your own to do this when you know, why doesn't the government actually just do this on its own?
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