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**Evan You:** It's true, yeah. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I also don't wanna lose another thing that you said, Henry, that was really, really good, which is that... |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Evan... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Sorry, yeah... We were talking about Henry for a while... \[laughs\] |
**Nadia Eghbal:** We talked so much about Henry... \[laughter\] |
**Mikeal Rogers:** We'll interview Henry eventually, don't worry... \[laughter\] You mentioned that a lot of times these companies open source these projects so that they can get a standard within a particular industry, and I find that kind of fascinating because what they used to do for that was write standards... Com... |
Now it seems like they're just skipping the standards phase and going straight to open source projects. |
**Evan You:** Yeah, I think the problem with directly drafting standards is you have this big risk of just having something written as specs and it turns out people just don't like it, or it's really hard to work with. Or it turns out after you have published the specs you realize it hasn't really gone through enough f... |
You generalize from something that's already working in the field, so that you spec based on top of that. I think the way ES is spec-ed right now, somehow we have these different stage approvals, and Babel kind of serves the role of letting people play with it before it's actually become part of the spec. Now we have a... |
I digress, but I think it's actually a good thing that we try to -- I'm not sure it's essentially a good thing, but from an implementation perspective I think having some open source project being successful kind of paves the way of having a solid spec on top of it. It becoming successful means it's working for people ... |
**Nadia Eghbal:** I'm actually wondering about that as you kind of move into a more mature phase of Vue... I'm thinking about what are all the different stages of an open source project, and I imagine early on it's sort of like spreading the word, getting downloads, and at some point you start to double down on users..... |
\[56:07\] If people think it's cool and then kind of get bored with it, they're just gonna stop funding you. |
**Evan You:** Yeah, I think we get some sort of very general sentiment based on tweets that I get, and I somewhat keep very loose track of, say, the Google search trends or GitHub stars, or npm download counts... None of these alone are very good metrics to determine the growth of the project, but when they are combine... |
Actually, a better indicator is probably the weekly active users of the official DevTools plugin... That's kind of like -- the real developers, the actual developers that are actually using Vue are using DevTools. It's kind of a good metrics that I look at pretty often. Aside from that, we also have -- I also added the... |
**Nadia Eghbal:** That's cool! |
**Evan You:** Yeah... So that's kind of one way of doing it. I've done a few surveys in the past, asking what companies are using Vue in production. The last one I did I think was almost a year ago maybe... But overall, I'm constantly surprised. Sometimes for example I'm on Twitter and someone mentions me, and you see ... |
Another channel -- as we are preparing VueConf, I get a lot of -- so we are reviewing the talk submissions, and there you start to see all these real people who are excited enough about Vue to submit talks to your conference and you see what products they work on, what company they work for, and it's pretty eye-opening... |
I think I'm not even fully aware of all the people that are using Vue across the world, because by the statistics there are more than 100,000 active Vue developers as of now... Then how many applications they must be working on? |
Honestly, I don't think I myself have a good enough grasp of the scale it's now at. I think it's maybe time for another survey. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** \[59:14\] I think on that note -- I think that's a great way to take us out, with the burgeoning, amazing user community. Hopefully we'll have you back on in a year or so, once you figure that all out, and then maybe we'll have something more to say as well. |
This has been great... This has been a really great chat. We really got into a lot of really great stuff, so thank you. |
**Evan You:** Great! |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Thanks for coming on, Evan! |
**Evan You:** Yeah, thank you for having me! I think that's it... |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Go to bed! \[laughs\] |
**Evan You:** Yeah, I should go to bed... It's like almost 3 AM now. \[laughter\] Alright... |
• Ryan Bigg's background in Ruby on Rails |
• His contributions to Rails documentation, including crowdfunded project for documenting Rails 3 |
• Transition into community management role for Spree open source project |
• Experience with burnout and finding a balance between contributing to open source and maintaining one's well-being |
• Ryan Bigg discusses his experience as a community manager for Spree, including the challenges of managing a user-facing application and dealing with fanboyism. |
• The burnout he experienced in that role was partly due to the pressure to continually be "amazing" and maintain high expectations from users. |
• He notes that documentation is often seen as less important than code contributions, but emphasizes its importance for making open source projects more accessible. |
• Ryan Bigg shares his own experience of learning to write documentation and encourages others to do the same, arguing that it's a skill that can be developed with practice. |
• The conversation touches on the theme of code vs. non-code contributions, with Nadia Eghbal pointing out the false dichotomy between developers who only write code and those who only contribute in other ways. |
• Ryan Bigg discusses his own experience of contributing to projects in multiple ways (code, documentation, community management) and emphasizes the value of being able to explain technical concepts clearly. |
• Ryan Bigg discusses the importance of documentation and encourages people to try writing it, even if they don't feel good at it |
• He shares his experience with maintaining small and large open-source projects, including Rails, and notes that responsibility for documentation changes depending on project size |
• He talks about his burnout and decision to quit contributing to open source in 2015, due to feeling overwhelmed by email and community work |
• Ryan describes how he was able to focus on a specific project (Multitenancy with Rails) after quitting open-source contributions |
• He discusses his role as community manager at Spree and notes that it wasn't part of his job to do open-source work, but rather extra tasks that he couldn't fit into his regular workday |
• Difficulty in finding maintainers for open-source projects |
• Burnout and the need for stepping away from project responsibilities |
• Importance of clear communication about needs and boundaries |
• Challenges in handing off projects and finding suitable maintainers |
• Role of community involvement and guidance in open-source development |
• Balancing contribution levels to avoid burnout and maintain mental health |
• Mentoring and guidance for new open source contributors |
• Burnout in open source projects: causes, effects, and perceptions |
• Maintaining a work-life balance in open source contributions |
• Community dynamics and entitlement among open source maintainers |
• Healthy project management practices and transition procedures |
• Recognizing and discussing burnout as a normal part of contributor life cycles |
• Encouraging younger open source maintainers to seek help and pass on projects |
• Burnout among first-generation open source maintainers due to overwork |
• Paying open source developers and its impact on project direction and ethics |
• Balancing personal enjoyment with professional obligations in open source work |
• Long-term maintenance and feature requests as contributors' interests change |
• Ryan Bigg discusses his experience as a celebrity in the Rails community, where he is recognized by some people but not others |
• He shares a personal anecdote about meeting a woman at a meetup who had transitioned from being a real estate agent to a Rails developer after reading one of his books |
• The conversation turns to managing workload and avoiding burnout, with Ryan Bigg suggesting that having a supportive partner or friend can help prevent burnout |
• He advises developers not to feel obligated to work themselves to the point of exhaustion, and to prioritize their own well-being and happiness |
• The group discusses how recognizing when one is getting grumpy and taking steps to eliminate the causes of that grumpiness can be an important part of maintaining a healthy work-life balance |
• Ryan Bigg jokingly suggests that if he were paid to contribute to open source, he might return to contributing more regularly. |
• The importance of having time to contribute to open source projects |
• Companies not valuing contributions to open source projects unless they directly benefit from them |
• Allocating company resources (time and money) to contribute to open source projects as an investment in the company's future |
• The vital role that open source projects play in supporting businesses, with examples of companies using popular open source technologies such as Rails, React, and Webpack. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** On today's show Mikeal and I talk with Ryan Bigg. Ryan is known for his work on Rails documentation, including the Rails guides and Rails 4 in Action. In 2015 he announced he is quitting all open source work, as he wanted to spend his free time elsewhere. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Our focus with Ryan was burnout. We talked about his time as a community manager for Spree, writing documentation for Rails, and what lead him to quit open source. Twice. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** We also talked about his occasional contributions since then, getting paid to work in open source, and whether there's a sustainable, happy medium. |
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