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**Eric Holscher:** So this is what Django does, right? Django has - I’m not sure what they call it, but they have the one paid staff... |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Fellowship, yeah. |
**Eric Holscher:** ...that's like the project manager. And they were like, “This is not a volunteer thing, and every release we have a long tier who does it, and they burn themselves out doing it.” Because it is a lot of work. It’s like the release manager, project manager role - it’s incredibly stressful, it’s really ... |
That’s a really, really tricky one, and this is actually where we’ve settled with Read the Docs, as well. We are a service, people use us, it’s free on the internet. We are also open source. That last part is the least important for most people. They’re like, “You’re a website that I use. You host my documentation. My ... |
There are things that people could do to add features, but in reality that almost never happens. We have a very, very low rate of actual contribution. In terms of sustainability, being open source is actually a detriment to the sustainability of the project, because it limits our commercial potential. Something like Gi... |
\[01:00:11.26\] GitLab, doing some very, very interesting stuff here. I haven’t fully viewed how their business works, but it seems complicated and interesting. I think it’s a really frustrating thing where we have this open source thing, we’re supporting the open source community, but there’s no obvious way to sustain... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I think you hit it. You can’t actually incentivize some of these contributions. If you can't and you need them and you have to pay for them, then how do you get the money to pay for them? How do you tie the money to the benefit that these roles actually fulfill? |
**Eric Holscher:** Yeah, I think that’s one of the big outstanding problems in open source, right? I think lots of people are trying to solve the problem with money, because it is... As you do more and more free work, eventually you realize, “Hey, maybe I should get paid for this.” |
Obviously, we don’t have the time to talk about all the different things that we’ve done, but so much of... The reason that Read the Docs still exists and it’s open source and running is because I’ve been on call for six years for free, basically. It’s something that I really truly care about, and it’s a true labor of ... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Right, right. Being that we don’t have time to get into all of them, let’s talk about some of the things that didn’t work. Let’s talk about one of them that didn’t work, and that everybody thought would work, it was obvious, but actually didn’t, for whatever reason. I’m very interested in why these d... |
**Eric Holscher:** I think the classic one in open source that is tried a million times and fails is the Red Hat model. It’s like, “Hey! Build this thing, and then open source it, and people will pay for support.” Basically, all we found is people ask for free support. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, yeah. There’s never going to be another Red Hat. That worked once, and it’s still working great, good for them; it’s not portable. |
**Eric Holscher:** When they’re doing databases and operating systems, right? Your internal documentation server is not something you’re going to pay Red Hat prices for. We have a few support contracts with different people, but that was not a scalable model. Most people, they just see it’s open source, install it loca... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** It almost makes it worse, because then people think that you are getting paid by somebody or compensated in some way, so they don’t event have the empathy for people that are maintaining a project in their spare time. |
**Eric Holscher:** \[01:03:54.06\] My favorite is when at conferences people come up and are like, “Oh, we installed Read the Docs locally and it’s so good! We’re getting so much value out of it, what a great product.” And I’m like, “Oh cool. Have you ever contributed anything?” and they’re like, “Oh...” And I’m like, ... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Oh, man... |
**Eric Holscher:** Yeah, and that’s why we’re looking at advertising as the latest thing, because it's like, we’re a free large website on the internet and there’s exactly one business model that has been proven to work. What we’re trying to do is do advertising properly, in the style of the deck, where we don’t track ... |
Really, there’s so much ad tech that's been built to try and understand this incredibly complex data that then gets schooled and tricked and ad fraud and all this stuff... And it's like, "Hey, what if we just put an image on the page? We think most people are going to look at it, and then you just pay us money and then... |
We have a bunch of traffic, we have decent users... Rolling that out was really stressful because we were really worried about alienating people and making them upset, because people do really view their documentation as part of their product, but people have been really understanding about "Yes, you need to get paid. ... |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Bringing it back to the Django roots I guess... Newspapers... |
**Eric Holscher:** Yeah, exactly. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Well, that seems like a great point to stop, actually. It’s been really great talking with you. |
**Nadia Eghbal:** Yeah. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** We learned so much, thank you. |
**Eric Holscher:** Yeah, definitely. Let’s do this again in like six months and I’m sure I’ll have some other hair-brained scheme to talk about. \[laughter\] |
**Mikeal Rogers:** That would be great. |
**Eric Holscher:** Alright, cool, and thanks to you all for having me on the podcast. I think it should be an awesome one. |
• Charlotte Spencer's first pull request was a spelling correction on a Node.js Express tutorial |
• Contributing to open source is not just about coding skills but also requires social skills and communication with others |
• Hoodie project does a good job of onboarding new contributors, providing them with issues, mentorship, and inviting them to Slack channels |
• Once contributors have made their first pull request, they may feel overwhelmed by what to do next and may not know how to continue contributing |
• Charlotte Spencer's journey from her first contribution to becoming a member of the Hoodie core team was accidental and happened through contributions to various parts of the website over several months |
• The importance of community support in open source projects |
• Bringing diverse skills and perspectives to Hoodie, an open-source project |
• Contributing to accessibility features on the Hoodie website and demo products |
• Removing ableist language and promoting inclusive communication |
• Fostering a positive attitude and culture within open source communities |
• Creating the Twitter account "Your First PR" to help beginners with their first pull request |
• Highlighting issues that are approachable for new contributors |
• The importance of having a "first-timers only" guide in open source projects |
• Challenges faced by maintainers when reviewing PRs from new contributors |
• The need for maintainers to be understanding and patient with first-time contributors |
• The anxiety and nervousness experienced by new contributors |
• The analogy between contributing to open source and going on a date, highlighting the awkwardness and uncertainty of the experience |
• Delayed review of a pull request and apology from the maintainer |
• Importance of open channels of communication in projects |
• Non-code contributions, such as moderation, community building, and content creation, are undervalued and important to project success |
• Examples of non-code contributions include logo design, blog posts, and community engagement |
• Challenges for small projects with limited resources and visibility, including attracting contributors and maintaining a welcoming atmosphere |
• The importance of setting clear expectations for your project through a well-written README |
• Having a code of conduct to outline intentions and set boundaries |
• Documenting everything, including processes and time commitments |
• Creating beginner-friendly issues that provide enough information for contributors to succeed |
• Building a support system to help new contributors and improve the community over time |
• Retaining first-time contributors in open-source projects |
• Importance of transparency and communication in open-source communities |
• Value of junior members contributing to a team and questioning established processes |
• Difficulty in balancing transparency with the need for summary or overview in large-scale projects |
• Need for adaptability and willingness to change processes as a project grows and scales |
• Importance of admitting when mistakes are made and being open to feedback and improvement |
• Best practices for contribution-type events to balance new contributors with maintainers' expectations |
• Importance of communication between event organizers and project maintainers before running an event |
• Providing hands-on support for beginners at in-person events |
• Setting clear intentions for the type of event (beginner-focused or casual) and communicating that clearly to participants |
• Admin tasks, such as setting up environments, troubleshooting, and disaster planning |
• Strategies to prevent gaming the system by event organizers, including reviewing pull requests and setting expectations for contributors |
• The importance of community over competition in open source projects |
• Managing spammy pull requests and maintaining project value |
• Navigating contributor flux and adapting to changing circumstances |
• Mitigating the risk of burnout and promoting self-care among contributors |
• Strategies for maintaining a sustainable and diverse contributor base |
**Nadia Eghbal:** I'm Nadia Eghbal... |
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