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Occupy Melbourne surprised the local law by turning their tents into costumes; when police attempted to tear down the tents, they sprouted legs and heads and started running around the park. The cops turned and left, chased by tents.
But the cops came back, and exacted petty vengeance on the costumed protesters. Several officers grabbed a woman who was wearing a tent and restrained her while they sliced the tent costume off her and then they left with the tent, leaving the protester in a public park in only a bra and underwear.
So, that would classify as an assault of the woman would it not? They restrained and undressed her publically humiliating her. Sexual assault?
Crafty
This movement is a test of law enforcement dignity everywhere.
So many are failing.
DeWynken
Will these attacks on Gingers never cease?
Pink Galah
In Australia we call them Rangas ;] Our Prime Minister is one ;)
Joshua Ochs
You know, until these protests, I used to give the police a fair shake. Hard job, little thanks, extreme risk and stress. A few bad apples who make the rest look terrible.
These constant stories are pushing me more and more towards "vicious thugs who enjoy bullying people for a living". We have what, a half dozen cities now with massive police overreaction, force, and violence?
Depressing.
occupyordie
i feel for the loss of your trust in police, but I'm glad that more people are waking up to this that has been a reality in many places in this country long before the occupy protests. thanks for voicing your thoughts.
Guest
People have been saying this for quite some time, and largely they've been met with "You must have been doing something wrong; law-abiding people don't have anything to worry about." One of the inadvertent effects of the Occupy movement has been the undeniable display of inappropriate use of force by authorities.
I think people become cops for one of two reasons: they legitimately want to help people, or they're bullies hiding behind the authority of the badge.
Alfred Hitchcock was once asked in an interview, What scares you? He replied "Policemen scare me. In our society, they're the only ones who can tap you on the shoulder and say, 'Come with me,' and you have to go."
Never doubt that policemen are aware of this.
Catbeller
Police , and soldiers of the US military, and agents of any of the US spookshows will be able to take you away. In the latter cases, forever and a day, without trial, if Congress gets its way.
Sparg Otyebat
In the States the US military is not allowed to act as police, thanks to the Posse Comitatus Act, though the individual states can sic their National Guard units on you, unless prohibited by the individual states.
John Veteran
Sparg, you are no doubt familiar with the National Defense Authorization Act?
dragonfrog
Actually, in the first world, it's not very risky. Based on 1999 figures, policing is about as dangerous as gardening, 1/3 as dangerous as garbage collection or driving a truck, less than 1/10 as dangerous as logging or fishing.
Thank god people are seeing the light now. Ive been being beaten and harassed for about 10 years now (coincidence?) and its only gotten worse. Ive been hit, purposefully cuffed incorrectly causing permanent feeling loss in one wrist, ive been given FALSE CHARGES on multiple occasions, Ive constantly been verbally and mentally harassed, ive been tortured, and more. Its only now that people are seeing them for what they truly have become, even the people in the "nice areas" can see the blatant disregard for people. Ive frequently heard police refer to people as animals or dogs. I wouldnt even treat a really bad dog the way ive been treated. I wouldnt piss on a cop that was burning to death and that is a fact.
Its the police who run the prostitution and hard drugs through my neighborhood. Its like a movie but in reality. They find known areas, bust known sellers, condemn the house, buy a house up the street, open up shop, use confiscated drugs for re-selling, keep the hookers doped up, etc. Murder and cover-ups go right along with it. Its known, kind of like we know judges are corrupt, congress is the opposite of progress, and lawyers are snakes. Just facts.
EVERY SINGLE TIME I speak of this someone just doubts me or tells me im doing something wrong. Fact is, what im doing wrong is living in a bad neighborhood. It really is a shame when good honest hard working people like myself fear the police more than the criminals. I no longer call the police, I bought a bulletproof vest and a gun. Nothing else a cop can offer me.
Fnordius
You know, just to raise the tinfoil a little bit, I wonder if some of these cases of heavy handed police tactics are being ordered from above to drive a wedge between the police and the protesters. Maybe the goal is to suggest to the cops themselves that they are beseiged, that only their rich overlords truly respect them?
Daniel
We've had this "War on Drugs" thing going on for like 30 years now despite statistics proving that it's having no negative impact on the availability of drugs or the profitability of drug distribution. It leads to ridiculous numbers of minor drug offenders being imprisoned — disproportionately ethnic minorities. At this point, the "Land of the Free" has the highest incarceration rate of the world because of these policies.
It's not the least bit paranoid to suppose that the point of all this is to drive a wedge between law enforcement and civilians. I'd say that there's no other reasonable explanation for the War on Drugs or the War on Terror for that matter.
Donaleen Kohn
Boy oh boy, cops are vindictive and have NO sense of humor about themselves, let alone an appreciation for the absurd.
Cowicide
As is anyone else who is dumb as a brick.
joeydetroit
Kinda rapey, Australia. Clearly law enforcement is showing with OWS that they are able to behave worse than the 'criminals' they are supposed to protect us from.
jimh
Christ, what assholes.
Sean Nelson
I see kids every day with baggy pants and shirts that could easily be used as a tent. They'd better watch out.
…Also, I bet the next set of tent costume wearers don't wear underwear.
It is summer here in Australia, I imagine it was pretty hot wearing a tent and running about.
Stephanie
My god, that poor woman. If that were me, I'd be pressing charges. The police have to no right to slice off her clothing, no matter what she's wearing. She's clearly under duress and saying thing like "Don't undress me, this is not consensual, don't take my clothes off." Those police ought to be ashamed of themselves and lose their jobs, to boot.
EvilSpirit
If by "lose their jobs" you also mean "not be allowed within 1000 feet of a school," then you'd be treating them like any other lawbreaker, at least in these parts.
graou
I agree with you, but am i the only one considering the guy shouting at the end seems overly dramatic ? I mean, how would he shout if the girl had been raped or shot…
To be clear I'm a huge fan of the idea of tent outfits, the reaction of the cops is stupid and disgraceful, but come on, when you do things like that you have to consider the eventuality of disproportionate response from the cops, and being in underwear in public isn't traumatic for me… But maybe it's just me…
PS : "Can you please call the cops" was excellent by the way, i'll try to remember it when i see police abuse people.
makalove
The man shouting at the end seemed overly dramatic to me, too, but the raw emotion in his voice made me wonder if he had an emotional relationship to the victim (partner? sister? etc.).
As far as considering in advance that a cop might sexually assault you if you wear a tent to the park, isn't that sort of like saying that rape is wrong but rape victims should have considered in advance that they might be raped if they go out in a short skirt?? The victim's choices may have begun the conflict, but her choices are not the cause of the illegal and inappropriate behavior – that distinction belongs to the cops who stripped this woman in a public place in direct opposition to her stated objections. You may not feel being in your underwear in public is traumatic, but it's the way she ended up in her underwear that is likely the most traumatic part of this.
i agree completely, by the way, about "Can you please call the cops"! Perfect response to police misconduct.
PhosPhorious
So rather than looking slightly foolish, they prefer to look like rapists and sex offenders.
Good call.
ycleptShawn
Did she originally have clothes on under the tent? Seems weird to be in bra and panties under the tent outfit. Then again, a tent in the sun can be pretty warm.
bob d
December + Australia = Summer. So yeah, I'd imagine it's pretty hot.
jordan yerman
It was pretty warm in Melbourne yesterday, yeah.
Guest
And once again the local police prove they are the most organized gang in the city.
dxx
I'm starting to wonder if the world's police forces are basing their training on Chicago's police forces or if Chicago just used to get the most public coverage.
Will Traxler
I think it's a bit of both, I live in Chicago and I can safely say that some cops here are the worst kind, but there are plenty of friendly ones. However, if you piss off a Chicago cop, god have mercy on your soul.
Catbeller
I was hit by a car in Chicago. After I called for police, I waited an hour… and gave up and went home.
When the big antiwar march in 2003 went down, there must have been 5000-10000 cops on the route, with hundreds of cars on lower Wacker and helicopters in the air… Chicago is at core fascistic and always has been. Not a slur, just a checklist. The government doesn't work for us, never did. Works for banks and money men. They do not like protests, no sir – those piss off the real bosses royally.
Pink Galah
Great post [i don't live in Chicago BTW;]
Why does an image of the Blues Brothers come to mind when I read this??
dxx
Did Mark Horwood remove his comment or did it get moderated out? Either way, CWAA.
The_Cup_IS_Full
she could have worn clothes inside, but didn't. How much more are the cops supposed to take. You want to make a statement against the government, politicians and all involved in making policies … go ahead. Don't F around with the cops who are doing their jobs.
Why wasn't she wearing anything underneath the tent? Huh? She's in public. A tent is not a home. Public indecency is what she should have been charged with next.
dxx
Last I checked, there wasn't any law declaring that a tent couldn't be used as clothing. (To clarify: I'm not Australian, but I would LOVE to be proved wrong here. Then at least we'd have faith that the officers were actually upholding the law.)
Police should act responsibly, not emotionally.
bob d
Hmmm, can't tell if trolling or complete idiot…
UrbanUndead
The Venn Diagram does have a thick wedge of overlap…
Brainspore
Don't F around with the cops who are doing their jobs.
Interesting interpretation of "doing their jobs."
subhan
If she was doing anything to warrant stripping her in public, she should have been placed in the back of squad car & arrested, taken to the station, & dealt with there. The fact they left her sitting naked on the ground after the assault is pretty telling evidence that this was purely vindictiveness.
Dr_Wadd
Probably just as well the video didn't show too much of her ankles, I'm not sure how you would have coped with that.
foobar
You do realize that December is to Australia what June is to North America?
Sgt_HulkasToe
Hey, for these purposes, I'm agreeing that they can be naked in a tent. But still, Sergeant. What would you do?
mccrum
Give her my jacket, give her a ride home, give her some decency.
Sgt_HulkasToe
Alright. Fair enough. But you probably wouldn't give her your jacket. Tough to explain that to the boss tomorrow at roll call. I suppose you could let her go. But you'd end up with 8 guys without jackets and still have walking tents. I don't think that anyone should be humiliated.
mccrum
She gets the jacket to wear until we get to the car where I can give her a blanket or something from the trunk. I'm not giving it to her for keepsies but I'm sure as hell not going to leave anyone out in a park in their skivvies no matter what.
Protect and serve. Not just protect your job.
foobar
I don't see what the real issue is with people in tent costumes in a public park. Are Melbourne police so over funded that they really have nothing more pressing to deal with?
Itsumishi
They do seem to make a lot of money by getting their rookies to fine people for jay-walking all over the CBD every few months. I don't mean the odd lone cop fining the people for stepping in front of traffic or anything. I mean a dozen cops situated at a major intersection fining each and every person that jaywalks.
dragonfrog
How about leave her the hell alone, since there's no sign she's doing anything wrong.
MertvayaRuka
If their reaction to someone having a bit of fun with them is to tackle and forcibly undress them, they shouldn't be cops. Fuck that, they shouldn't be able to interact with the public except perhaps from on the other side of a sturdy set of steel bars or perhaps through a solid half foot of lexan.
Don't F around with the cops who are doing their jobs.Interesting interpretation of "doing their jobs."
Don't feed the trolls! I know they're cute, and they keep looking at you with those big, sad eyes…
Catbeller
When, exactly, do we get to tell our "public servants" to knock it off? If we're not their bosses, who do they work for?
Mark_Frauenfelder
The police are allowed to do whatever they want to people who aren't rich. That's one of the perks they get for being the faithful minions of the 1%.
alex4point0
If you want to let Victoria Police know what you think of their behaviour, you can drop their Digital Media Unit a line on twitter at @VictoriaPolice:twitter . #occupysocialmedia #ashamedvictorian #nottoofarfromthetruth #yesitsnotcanada
Supposedly the protesters were warned by council staff that if they wrapped themselves in the tents they'd still be removed. However, I can't believe that there's a bylaw that forbids the wearing of tents
What disappoints me about the video clip is that all the police officers were filmed only showing from the shoulder down. It's potentially difficult now to identify officers unless more footage surfaces. More disturbing is that the numbers on the officers uniforms appears to be removed – another big no-no and one that's come up repeatedly in the Australian press
exhipigeonist
In the longer video you can hear multiple people recording names of the police involved. They may not be visible on the blurry images we can see, but the protesters had them when filing their official complaint.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were published online somewhere, too.
Sgt_HulkasToe
Yeah, and you can see their faces, so they'll all be named. I'm sure it was pretty clear from the radio tapes who was there.
willyboy
That correspondent reminds me of Andy Rooney.
Jonathan Roberts
As far as I can tell, the 'rules' for protesters and police often seem to be to put the other side in a bad light. If the police can (through agents provocateur or other means) make the crowd a bit violent so that they can make arrests and dismiss the movement as a bunch of unwashed hippies or thugs, they've won. On the other hand, if the protesters can show footage of police brutality against them, public sympathy switches to their side. This wasn't just some childish prank, it was clearly a publicity stunt as they were expecting the police to try to 'evict' them and wanted to see what would happen. Warm or not, I don't just drop my pants when the police arrive. I suppose the idea here was to try to make the police look silly, rather than ending up without clothes in the middle of a public park. Of course, in this case the police seem to have taken the bait and bitten down hard.
Sgt_HulkasToe
Alright. So I could say that as an ex-cop, I agree with the guy who says why are they naked. But then I'd get yelled down as a troll and ignored as having a different view.
So, I would pose to you. You're a Sergeant with a squad of 8 cops. You have been assigned the job of clearing the tents from the green, because camping is not permitted. What do you do? Bear in mind, that this is a lawful order, so you can't ignore or defy it without losing your job.
PhosPhorious
"What do you do?"
Arrest them. Take them in.
Do NOT strip them on public and then leave them. Do cops have NO standards whatsoever? Does "doing your job" excuse everything?
Sgt_HulkasToe
Alright. So they're wearing tents. Hard to put them in a police car with a popped out tent. Now, they could have stripped them of the tents and put blanket around them, but seriously, what would you do?
Guest
I'd fire you and hire a cop who could mange to do this without being a barbarian or an obstinate jerk about it.
Sgt_HulkasToe
No. You're the boss on the scene. So you're saying you'd call for a Lieutenant and assume he would fire you for being sub-human. Unlikely. So you would do nothing?
William Joseph Dunn
" Hard to put them in a police car with a popped out tent. Now, they could have stripped them of the tents and put blanket around them, but seriously, what would you do?"
but they didn't put them in a squad car because the cops knew no law was broken. the fact that they just left her there proves that. they just got their little feelings hurt, so they decided to teach her a lesson by assaulting her and if you don't think it's not assault, if they saw a civilian do the same thing they did, they would arrest that person.
what would I do? I would walk away because you can't arrest somebody because you don't like what they are wearing.
Sgt_HulkasToe
There is a law that prohibits tents in the park, or camping. And they were there illegally. So you're refusing to follow orders?
Antinous / Moderator
So you're refusing to follow orders?
Have y'all not heard of the Nuremberg Defense down there in the Southern Hemisphere?
Guest
Didn;t they disobey orders for not taking her in when she had broken the law?
they stripped her and left her.
And you're defending them. Why is that?
JProffitt71
There is nothing to defend here. Nothing. They cut off her clothing, and then promptly left. There was no arrest, and therefore presumably no law broken. Therefore, what they did was cut absurd clothes off of a woman. This is not defensible, it simply isn't. There is nothing that can be explained at this point; this is a defined issue and they, and anyone taking their side on this incident, are in the wrong.
Catbeller
Let's just call it what it was: rape. Whatever it is they would charge US with if we cut the clothes off a woman and left her naked in public.
PhosPhorious
"Now, they could have stripped them of the tents and put blanket around them"
That. Why is that not a "serious" option?
They stripped her and left her there.
You're defending them with a moronic rhetorical questions.
Once a cop, always a cop, I suppose.
Sgt_HulkasToe
You've misunderstood. This is not rhetorical. This is an actual question that they faced that day. My point is that it's easy to call them facist tools of the state. But they are people just like you who have to make split second decisions often.
InvertedLens
Split decisions can be argued when your life is at stake. There was plenty of time before they originally approached the tents, and then turned around and left. To think about their actions and even the point of being ordered to have the tents cleared out. This is inexcusable, despicable and rape-like.
PhosPhorious
Sgt_HulkasToe:What makes this a rhetorical exercise is because the situation you are defending is not the one that transpired.There was no "split second decision." there was no "How do we get her into the squd car in that get up?"The cops went away and came back. They stripped her without arresting her.All the exculpatory possibilities that fascinate you so much exist entirely in your head.
John Smith
Wow, cops really are stupid. remove the poles, dirt brain.
tom burtonwood
i'm sure the cops in Oz have bigger vehicles. if not commandeer a flat bed truck or bus. either way it's simply a logistical issue and the on the ground commander should be able to improvise as need or hire someone who can.
Bodhipaksa
Your entire argument is predicated on the police having been given orders to remove tents from the park. Wearing a tent as clothing is arguably odd, arguably humorous, arguably cheeky. But what it is not is "camping." Now I doubt very much whether these police officers had orders to forcibly remove tents worn as clothing, so your argument is moot.
exoskeletor
Well, if I couldn't figure out what to do in a situation like that I guess I wouldn't deserve the position. Hypotheticals like this are useless. Cops, especially the higher ups, need to be able to think on their feet and be able to assess a situation like this as a potential PR problem.
Me? I would have walked her (in this case) to a safe area, maybe a paddy wagon, called a matron, and have her civilly undressed in private. Duh. Then take her down to be booked if that's what was going to be done or let her make a call for some clothes or get some from bystanders, and let her leave (as the hero she might think she is, but still control my fucking ego). It's really not rocket science. I'd have a lot harder time dealing with David in DC hanging onto a building's framework. What would you have done about him? Shot him?
cnawan
1. The follow up video (where she confronts the cops, tells them she wants to charge them with sexual assault, they refuse and laugh at her) takes place in front of a large police van, which I believe was parked on the edge of the park.
2. Among the police officers forcibly disrobing her are female cops.
What I might have done is have the female cops escort her into the van, assist her (if required) to remove the tent and give her something else to wear.
Now, how hard was that?
ernunnos
How? They're wearing tents. You have to get them out of the tents in order to fit them into a squad car. There is no good choice for the cops. That's the point, that's the kind of intractable situation the protesters wanted to create. And they succeeded. Congratulations.
You notice this is not inconveniencing the criminals who created the financial crisis one bit?
PhosPhorious
So they stripped her in order to arrest her?
Then why didn't they arrest her?
Brainspore
There is no good choice for the cops.
If only there had been some way for the cops to walk away WITHOUT stripping a young woman in public first. Alas, we live in the real world where entertaining such fantastical notions clearly gets us nowhere.
InvertedLens
They didn't arrest the girl though, they all walked away with the tent scraps.
Xof
Because the one thing we are *absolutely sure of* is that the police of one of the largest cities in Australia have nothing larger than a SmartCar to transport prisoners in.
Itsumishi
As John Smith pointed out above the really obvious solution is to remove the poles.
Mark_Frauenfelder
I missed the video where they put her in the squad car. The one I saw is where the left her half naked on the ground.
VerySincerely
Ignore human rights laws. Remember, the most important thing is that the police save face. Go ahead and sexually assault and humiliate the young woman in the park. Job well done.
Jonathan Roberts
Cut the metal/plastic supports and leave the protesters wearing ponchos?
Sgt_HulkasToe
I like that idea. I support that. Prevents them from camping in it and yes allows them dignity. +1
PhosPhorious
I'm curious, since hypotheticals seem to be your thing:
What would you do to the officers involved, if you were their superior? High fives all around, or something more formal, like a commendation?
sincarne
Police have been doing a pretty thorough job of clearing parks of protesters in the past month. Some peacefully, some like stormtroopers. Suddenly they put on tents and it's all changed? Interesting. If someone were to play peekaboo with you, would you really believe they'd disappeared?
I'm getting sick of people really digging to find excuses for this. This was petty vindictiveness that left a woman underdressed in a park. Nothing else.
Brainspore
You have been assigned the job of clearing the tents from the green, because camping is not permitted. What do you do?
I'd walk away once it was clear that the tents were part of a practical joke rather than an encampment. Maybe have a chuckle with my buddies about "kids today."
ernunnos
Despite what "Super Troopers" might have lead you to believe, the police hiring process does not generally select for an appreciation of practical jokes. You may or may not want to take this into account when encountering the species in the wild.
Brainspore
…the police hiring process does not generally select for an appreciation of practical jokes.
The Sgt. asked what I would do in that situation. But it doesn't really matter if the police appreciate it or not. If you're a law enforcement officer you can't take personal petty vengeance just because somebody annoyed or embarrassed you.
Catbeller
Not when there are cameras around. They usually take you into the alley and kick the crap out of you. That's always legal, 'cause they define legal.
You cannot use "following orders" as an excuse for breaking the law. If you can't figure out a legal and responsible way of carrying out an order, you ought not to follow it. I'm not sure how it plays on the police side of things, but in the military, there's a very explicit mandate to follow only lawful orders. Blow up an enemy tank? Check. Shoot a guy running naked and lipstick-smeared from your CO's house with said CO chasing behind screaming "shoot that —-er"? Not so much.
Xof
You do realize that what the police actually *did* does not correspond to your goal, yes?
foobar
Technically, as soon as the protesters stood up, the tents were cleared.
Peter
O.K. here is my interpretation of the situation the police faced and why I think your comment sucks.
1: the police had to do something because, by god, they cannot appear to be human or lax or just plain humiliated by a civilian. (why the hell do they refer to non-cops as cilviians….the cops are civilians too, nothing more ,nothing less. They are not sacred gods to be feared and granted indulgences…they are public servants).
2: Then when they do that and are shown as action oriented goons here come all of their comrades, holding to the line that cops can do no bad and the old excuse " OH, the poor Police!…they are just human….they were put in such an awkward position"….wah wah wah.
3: Oh , they were ordered to remove the tents from the green were they….then they should have waited for the protesters to retire or take off ther clothes…at that point the cloths become tents again and have to be removed ….because of the Sergeants orders.
4: The police can ignore the command and live ethical lives. Following orders indicates that the police have been militarized.
5: Funny how you think a cop can be fired for not following a stupid order. Cops can beat the crap out of someone for no good reason and the only punishment is 3 days off with out pay….fired! that a baloney argument.
You are welcome
Jo Bain
The lawfulness of the order is being debated in our federal court. A judge at a bail hearing I attended where someone was charged recently was not prepared to recognise the validity of the order and basically threw it out of court, furious that her time was wasted by the police.
This is important to keep in mind when discussing whether or not this was a 'split second decision' by the police yesterday.
Anonymous
Why do you guys continue to trip over yourselves addressing the authoritarian troll. Ignore, delete, ignore. He's got no leg to stand on, which is why the article was posted in the first place.They damaged the property of the activist and I argue they sexually assaulted the activist. Since when is public non-consensual sexual humiliation not a sexual assault?
Disemvowelling is pathetic, either ignore or delete.
Tim H
If we are imagining the thought processes of the policemen, we might try imagining how they were perceiving what was happening. They were probably told to go back and get the tents, which they did. They stripped the tent off the woman, and only then did they suddenly realize that she was basically naked underneath the costume. Up to that point, things were ugly but still within their understanding, after the stripping there WAS a split second moment when everything changed.
They had ALREADY stripped the woman naked, probably not understanding that removing the tent would cause this to occur. At that point we see who the human beings are, who the good policemen are, and we see that the police turned and left the park. They created a situation in which a woman was left all but naked, but then the left.
That's not just bad human beings, that's bad policing.
exhipigeonist
They did understand that removing the tend would lead to this. Well, sort of. The protesters claimed that they were naked underneath the 'tents', their only layer of clothing. When the police moved in one officer checked if this was correct, and reported that, in fact, protesters did have clothes on.
Not sure if this was misunderstood as meaning 'fully clothed' rather than 'only underwear', but still, they were told beforehand that this was a strong possibility.
PhosPhorious
"probably not understanding that removing the tent would cause this to occur. . . "
Exactly how did you calculate that "probably?"
Tim H
I couldn't understand a lot of the conversation in the video.
lostinutah
The Police will not be mocked. They are The Police, after all, and must be shown respect. The Police are really quite sensitive.
Manny
Ya know, hoop skirts are pretty much tents.
kairii
There's no excuse for the police behaviour demonstrated here. To leave a woman exposed in a public park in her underwear — after the humiliating and frightening experience of having been forcibly, publicly, stripped is abhorrent. Having said that:
If we're going to stereotype police officers — roll them all up into the thick as brick, humourless, bully-thug POLICE — then we oughtn't be surprised when officers become alienated from the public. There are d##@head police officers, sure — but not, I think, out of proportion to the d##@head: decent person ratio in the general population…considerably less, I should think. The Occupy movement has highlighted a lot of vindictive jerks in policing around the world; MOSTLY, though, the police have performed their duties responsibly. Responsible policing doesn't get a whole heap of media coverage; irresponsible policing does — as it should. Bad cops should be named, shamed, punished, but officers shouldn't be subjected to derision and prejudiced assumptions (as in some instances above) merely by virtue of their job — a job which is stressful, difficult and all too often thankless.
MertvayaRuka
They're not subject to derision and prejudiced assumptions merely by virtue of their job. They're subject to derision and prejudiced assumptions because they routinely do NOT name, shame or punish substantially those who are engaged in "irresponsible policing". And if they're going to stick up for the humorless bully-thugs that happen to wear the same uniform they do, they can fucking well deal with the fact that people aren't going to like that. The problem isn't just the vindictive jerks. It's the supposedly "good" cops who can always be counted on to back them up despite their "goodness".
kairii
If they're going to stick up for the humourless bully-thugs that happen to wear the same uniform as they do, then yeah, they can fucking well deal with the fact that people aren't going to like them. I'm not denying there are way too many bad cops, and I'm not denying there are too many cops who turn a blind eye to the kind of behaviour they themselves wouldn't engage in. But 'too many' doesn't equal 'all' or even 'most'. What I observe leads me to believe that in my city at least - Sydney – police of the kind you're talking about are a sizeable minority.
FrodeSvendsen
Doesn't matter.. Would you feel safe that the officer you encounter isn't one of the psychotic, pumped up beef-heads on a power trip?
You only need to meet one of them, and hey-presto, your life is turned right around..
teapot
I'll see whatever good you've seen the cops do here (Syd) and I'll raise you a hundred stories of them being power-tripping jerks or lazy morons. Anecdotes only go so far you see but you also seem to be forgetting that NSW has just about the worst history of police corruption in the country.
waetherman
As an aging radical (!) I have to say that the way that "the kids" today manage to outwit authority and bring innovation to the very idea of protest surprises and delights me. Seeing these "tent monsters" is an inspiration. Rock on, OWS. >golf clap<
Itsumishi
I wonder if this event will garner more support for the occupy movement in Melbourne. I sense it probably won't.
By far and large people in Melbourne seem to believe that whilst occupy every other city outside of Australia is justified, in Australia it somehow is not. The basis of this strange thought pattern seems to be that the protesters have nothing to protest about as our economy is yet to go down the shitter to use a local phrase. The fact that virtually all of the social ills and class divisions that exist in England, America, Europe, etc exist here also seems to be ignored. The degrees that these exist might be less in say Melbourne to London, but they sure as hell exist on a country wide scale.
Noctilucent Studios
So glad to hear they are pressing charges against the police. Here's hoping they win and win BIG.
flickerKuu
So did I see this right? A protester is detained and stripped of her costume. (All of which may be ok at this point) - but THEN, she is just LEFT sitting "nude" in a public place? No- you have to take her into custody then, and make sure she isn't breaking other laws by being naked in public. This is a rape / personal safety issue you have put her in now, and the police need to take custody of her and provide her with a jumpsuit or some privacy. There is no way this is right, decent, legal, or humane. -3874 for the cops and counting…
Petzl
Uh, anyone else grit their teeth any time she said "Mel-Born" (as opposed to Mel-Bin)? If it were Edin-Burra, Scotland, I guess she'd pronounce it "Edin-Burg".
This is CN-Frigging-N: Mr. Ted Turner made a big deal about calling having his reporters outside the US be called "international correspondents" and not "foreign correspondents." You'd think they'd show some awareness of the countries they allege they report on.
Itsumishi
No, and nor do I when I hear any English speaker refer to Paris instead of 'Par-ee' or Venice instead of 'Venezia'. Pronouncing names differently is hardly something to get upset about.
L_Mariachi
Your European examples are from different languages. Australians speak English (nominally.) "Mel-born" : "Mel-burn" is not analogous to "Cologne" : "Köln." Nobody says Mel-born, just as nobody says "War-sester-shire."
EvilSpirit
You fail to explain why that makes any difference. Nobody says "Paris" instead of "Paree" because they can't speak French, or because they can't pronounce "Paree." They say it because that's how it looks. Just as "Melbourne" isn't going to look like "Melbin" to anybody unfamiliar with the local pronunciation.
Itsumishi
Indeed, Paris is spelt exactly the same regardless.
Itsumishi
Fine, Pall Mall or Paul Maul? Car-stle-maine or Cas-tle-maine? New Zealand or Nu-Zelind? Australia or Ostraya?
The point is accents and pronunciations vary constantly, names of places being no exception.
GlenBlank
[Flagged original comment as requested and tried to reply to it. Got "There was an error with your submission."
That was really depressing reading.. How they so totally fail to see that the people we entrust this sort of responsibility to should be held to a higher standard is mindboggling.
DMStone
I don't understand why the tent monsters couldn't have had their laugh and then be done with it.
anharmyenone
Remember the Earth Liberation Front arsons? I'm afraid that when people start accusing police of sexual assault that we will see the kind of out-of-control emotions that will lead some in the occupy movement to start forming cells. It's time for people to take a step back and deescalate. Focus on ideas, not confrontation. The internet is the world's greatest soapbox and is there to be used to propose any desired reforms.
Antinous / Moderator
The internet is the world's greatest soapbox and is there to be used to propose any desired reforms.
Kind of like a free speech zone where people can protest without have any effect whatsoever on the government or the corporations or the police.
Brainspore
It's time for people to take a step back and deescalate. Focus on ideas, not confrontation.
Next thing you know they'll be organizing boycotts and marching on the National Mall. We can't have that! It might lead to something scary and new… like votes for women, or the Civil Rights Act, or ending the war in Vietnam. Best to just stick with angry letters to the editor.
EvilSpirit
The flaw in your argument is that the police actually did commit a sexual assault. I see no grounds for not accusing them of doing what they did.
what_do_you_care
Basically this boils down to how some cops (and sheriff's departments) are motivated by their emotions and politics, and feel that those motivations trump decency and procedure. I think they are emboldened when they see and hear people supporting them. Lt. John "pepper-spray" Pike, I'm sure, felt he was generating a good bar room story when he sprayed these kids directly in the face. And I'm sure he did receive secret accolades from his most malcontent friends for "having the balls" to do what they themselves "wanted to do".
You can't say that this is true about all county sheriff's departments or municipal police departments, and certainly about all cops, though. For a cop that has opposing politics, or even wrong-headed views, doesn't have to mean a cop that does much harm to the public if he is a well-trained and disciplined public servant.
For the many failures by police to carry power responsibly, though, the closest elected official should be scandalized by these incidences. We should hold them accountable.
donovan acree
This is a systemic problem. Going after politicians will do nothing. Politicians come and go but it is the culture of police which we need changed. I suspect it can only be done from the ground up.
Until I see police arresting police for this and other atrocities, all police are in the wrong. We/They need to stop this abuse. Excusing the actions and ignoring the inaction of the police only serves to continue the immoral and illegal activities of those we have granted power.
what_do_you_care
I don't know how you are going do any of these things, from the ground up or from the top down without politicians. Politicians are the products of democracy. The power of people is in democratic actions or revolutionary actions and in this "terrorism" climate revolutionary actions are going to go south swiftly and quickly with very little interest in the cause.
Is ballot activism so useless? Or as I wonder, is it just underutilized? Or perhaps it's under-organized? The protests have gotten some attention from some politicians. Why? Because they expect ballot rewards. They do change the conversation.
I don't have all the answers but I don't see the ballot box discourse happening as much as I think it could.
Other than that I'd say if you feel powerless then think about whatever it is that you do in life, and how you can do it better, and how you can do it to help change the conversation.
Mister44
WTF, Australia? And your Steakhouses seemed so nice…
teapot
"Steakhouses" don't really exist here. You can get delicious steak at a restaurant or pub, but there aren't really many dedicated steak restaurants. It confused me immensely to see "Outback Steakhouse" in the middle of Shibuya, Tokyo… Totally bizarro. I notice that there are actually some stores here in Australia now, but this bit of blurb from their site explains everything:
OSI Restaurant Partners, LLC, headquartered in Tampa, Florida was founded in 1988 by those who believe in hospitality, sharing, quality, being courageous and having fun! *puke*
you know your a hottie when your lookin good even wearin a tent. wowza :)
Brainspore
you know your a hottie when your lookin good even wearin a tent. wowza :)
You know you're a sicko when you get turned on by video of a woman being sexually violated. Wowza. :-[
Ipo
I had no idea, in Australia, the Fashion Police was endowed with undressing-powers.
Is this about some new anti-burqa-laws?
teapot
Usually Youtube comments demonstrate nothing but stupidity, but this guy has it right on the money.
Victorian Police are mostly societies rejects & retarded inbreds that failed to pursue a real trade or career in the real world
You know the morons were laughing about it back at the station. It's not gonna be so funny when they find their asses in court.
shadowfirebird
I have this pleasant fantasy* of a new fashion trend starting in Melbourne in response to this: everyone you see wearing tent-like clothing.
(* Not that sort, stupid.)
Mladen Kalinic
Power of the super rich. They don't like what you're doing, you won't do it anymore.
Let's just see how angry they can get us to be
Nathan Hornby
My favourite bit: "Can somebody call the cops??"
Illustrates the situation perfectly.
parker_vmg3
It seems that a lot of thought was put into this event from both sides. The real instigators were out of camera for the event's, but one of them can be heard quite clearly. The blowout for this will be amusing to say the least. Your and my thoughts on the matter will be negligible either way.
RaleighSaintClair
In the end, what has peaceful protesting accomplished?
dragonfrog
You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're just setting up an opening for a "How do I love thee, let me count the ways" type enumeration of all the amazing things achieved through peaceful protest.
donovan acree
If she was doing something wrong, wouldn't she have been arrested? They just cut up her property, left her half naked, and walked away.
sufficap much
From where I stand, this looks a lot like a gang-rape in progress. Citizens could (should) have intervened. Each of those 'officers' should have been placed under citizens arrest.
mikey p
There's a lively debate about the tent-cutting incident on the Victoria Police Facebook page:
You may, perhaps, like to let them know your thoughts on the matter.
Panagiotis Drivilas
Afterwards they should have arrested her for public nudity..
Scott Minnis
In Brisbane Australia: My house mate was attacked first by bouncers and then by cops because another black man had punched a bouncer earlier that night. This was just a little bit too ridiculous for me to hear. He was out for dinner with his girlfriend and another couple on a Sunday evening. I usually respect the police, but sometimes…
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No one knew he was back yet, or at least no one cared enough to seek him out. He'd entered through the mansion's front gate several nights past, walking his motorcycle to the garage instead of waking up the populace. With bike back in place and metal sparkling after a wipe down, Logan threw the filthy rag across Cyclops's favorite car and headed into the woods. He didn't have the drive to go into the mansion yet, to face the people he was sure were still in there. Three months had passed since he last saw most of them—they wouldn't have liked what they saw.
His jeans had grown tighter, making an irritable swoosh as he walked. The sleeves of his favorite button-up flannel shirt had grown too narrow to put his arms through, forcing him to rip the sleeves off. T-shirts didn't fit anymore, leaving his chest exposed to the elements. He had always been a muscular man, but his physique had increased a size or two. He had yet to appear ill-proportioned, but his body had naturally become stronger. He could move faster now, remain in a crouch longer, stay alert in the darkness, and silent in the daytime. Thick veins had come to web up and down the muscles in his arms, chest, back, and legs. He was lion-like, the control of his muscles stretching and taunting through his skin as if he moved like a lion stalking prey.
He ran a thick hand through his hair that had grown longer, his two peaks weighing down to a point Logan considered putting them into a ponytail. The only consolation he had was that his cowboy boots still fit, and his uniform that he left in a bag attached to his bike had conformed to cling to his larger girth. While he wasn't aware of what was happening to his body thoroughly, he was aware that he was becoming far more… dangerous. His temper was easier to spark, his snarl easier to form, and his brash behavior easier to bring to the surface. While his thoughts were still his own—more Logan than feral—he could feel the animalistic side of him creep into the edge of his mind and fray the ends. The prospect unnerved the feral. He wasn't sure if he could trust himself around a group of people anymore.
He reached the cabin he made himself years ago, relishing in the musty odor of nature. He eased himself into a hammock tied to a corner of the cabin to act like a bed and slept. He was comfortable, at ease, and relaxed—it was the most sleep he had done since he had been away.
He woke up a day or two later, hungry and thirsty. He managed to put his newly found more enhanced senses to use, hunting the smaller animals in the forest and sticking them over a fire like he had always done the past few months. While there was food at the mansion, hunting relaxed him further. Water was in fresh supply, and no matter what he drank, he wouldn't have to worry about the illnesses born from rancid water. With his stomach full and thirst appeased, he stretched his large limbs, tossed the bones further into the woods, and kicked dirt over the embers. His next stop was Breakstone Lake.
~*~*~*~
His skin chilled with the lake's tension running down the contours of his body. He lay on his back, body bobbing up and down, realizing he had never been able to do this for as long as he could remember. He was truly floating, not sinking like a rock and struggling to reach the surface. His pants had naturally weighed him down, but with a few kicks of his legs and arcs of his arms, he continued to stay on the surface with great ease. He would have preferred to swim without clothing, but a part of Logan kept himself modest being so close to the mansion. He'd have to go in there sometime, to ease normalcy back into his life, but until then, he preferred to be here, bobbing up and down, truly able to swim.
Maybe no longer having adamantium wasn't such a bad thing, as long as he learned the spoils of no longer having it.
Leyu had looked it up in the dictionary some time ago. She knew what it meant, what she believed it meant. The dictionary said that it was defined as the satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; to make amends. There were also theological implications as well - atonement referred to the concept of reconciliation of God and humankind, as accomplished via the life, suffering, and death of Christ. That was the noun, the verb had more. To make up, as for errors or deficiencies. The woman staring at her had made mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. Mistakes are made, people die right? They die or burn or drown or fall and /break/.
It happened. And in the not-so-distant past, it happened because of the woman staring at her. Dark eyes, dark hair, dark scowl- all to match the dark path from which she was trying to trudge back.
The Asian woman kicked out at the watery reflection staring back at her and turned away. Sliding down against the tree, Leyu pressed her lips into a thin line. Stupid, stupid girl. Isn't this how you were told you'd end up? All the fire and air in you with no water to calm you or earth to ground you. Out of control and just freely burning down any trail dug out before you. She wasn't concerned about the smart dark slacks being stained by dirt and grass. Leyu didn't care about the bark of the tree digging into her dress shirt. "Aka," she mumbled to herself, staring at her hands. "Aren't I supposed to be able to see red?"
Was it good or bad that she worried about it /not/ showing? Shouldn't there be signs, indicators of guilt? Maybe a big sign on her back that everyone should see? It shouldn't be so that she could just go on living like it never happened. Because if it was so easy to move on, what was to stop her from doing it all again? Nothing, really. There was nothing. She could bury it all right here and now and forget about it. She'd whisper her apologies to the river and it'd be done with. If she acted normal, like herself, no one would have to know. The truth would only come out in an abuse of power or someone ratting her out. It'd never have to fall from her lips.
Confess to the river, whisper your guilt to the element you're so very lacking in, and leave. Say it and get up, brush yourself off and ignore it. Do what you do best and let the ashes scatter in the four winds. Never think of it, never speak it - your dirty little secret.
Zutto. Kicking out at the grass, Leyu glared out at the water again as if it was withholding the solution from her on purpose. She couldn't bury this, bury it in the river here - a watery grave - like her Clan probably wished they'd done to her when they'd still had the chance. Pride wouldn't let her walk and guilt wouldn't let her speak. Great. Just...great. Back to square one, Leyu resumed staring broodingly at the water as though waiting for it to tell her something.
--------------------
"A light to burn all the empires - so bright the sun is ashamed to rise and be." - My Chemical Romance
Logan's ears were underwater, dulling the noises he heard. He could hear the faint ripples his body created while in the water, fish cresting the surface and quickly swimming away, even the water bugs that danced on the surface as they skimmed and jumped. Anything outside of the water was a mystery to his auditory senses, but not to the olfactory. He crinkled his nose. The scent of pine, fish, and wet soil was normally a soothing reminder of comfortable memories he couldn't bring to the surface, but there was a strange stench in the air. Burnt ozone lingered above the surface with a touch of a smell he thought he'd never sniff anytime soon. He lifted his head from the water, ignoring the dribbles running down his nape as he sniffed again. Sakura—a cherry blossom. Not native in the United States, but common in Japan. The scent triggered memories that were best left forgotten, a rain of white petals falling around a silhouette as she knelt at a gravestone—some lost family member Logan didn't get a chance to know.
He forced the image of Mariko from his mind and glanced around. All he saw were the trees on the shore line, but he gently twirled in the water, eyes narrowing down at an individual sitting in front of a tree near the shore closest to the mansion. Whether Japanese or not, he couldn't tell, but the lingering scent of cherry blossoms was near unmistakable. Moving forward like a dolphin cresting the water, he dove under, finding it easier to swim faster underwater. His feet and legs moved like a fin as he crested the water once, took a breath, then sunk back under. He was roughly twenty feet from Sunpyre before he surfaced again, sticking to the surface as he swam toward shore. Dark blue eyes looked at the woman who was clearly lost in her own thoughts, and Logan realized she was indeed from an Asian descent.
He finally found traction underfoot as he stood and waded to the surface. He approached the woman, water up to his ankles as his jeans clung to his legs and put his hands to his hips. "You got a name or am I stuck callin' you Burnt Sakura?" He'd never seen the woman before—couldn't place her face. But there was a slight twinge of familiarity in her facial structure. He waved the thought off.
His eyes narrowed toward the woman, her form tense, an uncomfortable position, with eyes distant before he arrived. She was contemplating something, and whatever she was contemplating was not a pleasant thought. His suspicion arose.
"You visitin' Chuck's place?" He asked, wiping his face with a hand to stop the drips of water from tickling his nose. "Big ol' comfy place like that, and yer out here gettin' yerself worked up over somethin'. Not sure if yer wantin' to be alone or just plain stupid to pick this spot." With clothes like that, Logan decided Leyu wasn't one to dwell in nature. She dressed too damn uppity like some social worker than to see the finer details of the water. She was getting dirty just by sitting down. Seemed to Logan she should have picked a better spot than rolling in the dirt like some pig. Snorting, he turned around and bent over, cupping his hands in the lake. He flung the water over his head, caring little if the majority of it splashed on the woman. All he wanted was to keep his hair slicked back to keep stray strands off his forehead.
He turned around, crossed his arms, and waited to see if he could figure out just who this woman was and what exactly she was doing here.
You'd think that Leyu would be more grateful for a distraction from her not-exactly-cheerful thoughts.
And you'd be wrong. Sunpyre frowned at the man in front of her. The soaked man. The soaked man with regular clothes on, clothes that...kind of looked like they didn't fit? Sunpyre's power set did not include enhanced eyesight - unless you wanted to count the infrared vision - but she could tell the difference between clothes-are-wet cling and muscles-too-big cling. This man had both going on and she wondered if it wasn't uncomfortable. Alright, fine, maybe she half-admired the view for a moment. What? You've no right to judge her for that! You were looking too!!
And then he started talking, ruining it all entirely. His voice wasn't grating, she'd met people with grating voices. His was rough and she'd almost swear he was growling sometimes, but it wasn't going to make her ears bleed. No, it was the inevitable offense of talking and saying something she found offensive and/or unpleasant. 'Burnt sakura'? What kind of name was that? Why would he want to call me that? It'd make more sense if she knew who she was dealing with and that the name he'd come up with was based on her scent. But Wolverine didn't volunteer the information and she wasn't in the mood to play at being curious. She guessed the sakura was because she was Japanese and he'd guessed at her nationality very quickly. The burnt part though.. Leyu looked around, but noted that she had torched anything in the vicinity. The local temperature had risen a few degrees in response to her irritation and lack of power regulating, but nothing was on fire.
Whatever, let him be weird then.
"Sunpyre," she said, but only because he looked like he'd really continue to call her 'Burnt Sakura' if she didn't offer up something else. She'd hoped he would just go back in the water, but noooo. While she wasn't in the mood to be curious, but he was more than willing to interrogate her though. And she did mean interrogate.
"You visitin' Chuck's place?" -- "Big ol' comfy place like that, and yer out here gettin' yerself worked up over somethin'. Not sure if yer wantin' to be alone or just plain stupid to pick this spot."
She supposed 'Chuck' was supposed to be Charles, as in Charles Xavier. Yeah, she was kind of avoiding the man. Leyu gave the man a flat look. "Well it certainly doesn't matter either way /now/." If he'd thought she wanted to be alone, he clearly didn't care since he was here bothering her anyway. And as for stupid. "And I hardly find it stupid to come to this river; it was certainly a good enough location for you." So he went for a swim and she opted to sit on the grass. Big flipping difference. And alright, she hadn't exactly planned this out. These clothes were clearly not appropriate, but Leyu didn't care. She'd wanted to sit by the river, commune with nature. The Japanese mutant wasn't going to let something like completely replaceable fabric stop her. A little dirt never hurt anyone.
Turning as if done with her, the man re-wet his hair with water. That was fine, just fine, except for the part where he used enough water to not only re-wet his hair, but to send some cool liquid her way as well. Sunpyre didn't know the man well enough to determine if he was spiteful enough to do that on purpose, but she was annoyed nonetheless. I suppose I should be thankful my shirt isn't white. Leyu rolled her eyes and muttered a few choice words in her native tongue. Whatever. A little dampness was nothing for her. The woman did a little 'speed dry', raising the temperatures further for a minute or so. Sufficiently dry - and without setting anything on fire too! - Leyu let her powers dissipate entirely, including the little bump from the agitation this man was causing her.
He turned back to her again. Fantastic, he wasn't through with her yet. Maybe he'd splash again. She should save him the trouble and just jump into the river. He folded his arms, making the veins on his muscular arms stand out more. The man had a look of general disapproval and suspicion. You know, when he frowns that way, he reminds me of the Elders."And you are...a keibi? Mansion security?" This would be amusing if she wasn't so miserable before he opted to swim up. Maybe that's what she'd call him though, 'Keibi'. Keibi-san. He certainly looked like he'd make an impressive guard for any manor. And to be a guard for a mansion full of high-powered mutants? Even bigger. Leyu stared unflinchingly back and wondered what the 'magic words' were here. Maybe a secret password.
Leyu leaned back against the tree, shifting to get good and comfortable - dress clothes or no. She kicked off her shoes, obviously not planning on going anywhere now. Maybe she really would go for a swim. "Nani - am I encroaching upon your territory? What do you want from me Keibi-san?"
--------------------
"A light to burn all the empires - so bright the sun is ashamed to rise and be." - My Chemical Romance
Sunpyre. Logan let the name swirl in his brain as he took a closer look at the contours of Sunpyre's face. She carried the usual feminine appearance—a rounded jaw and petite nose with her chocolate brown eyes, but still that hint of familiarity was nagging at him. Even though her appearance was different, there was still something similar there. Maybe if he bothered to look at Shiro Yoshida more often, he'd finally make the connection, but since the man had more fire coming out of his ass than his hands, Logan didn't even bother. But he did look at Kenuichio Harada quite a bit. Perhaps that was where the spark of recognition was coming from… but then again, maybe not.
"Well it certainly doesn't matter either way /now/."
Logan snorted. Fiery scent and a fiery spirit—how clichéd. As for this spot being good enough for him… "Probably because I ain't like you." As he went about wetting his hair, the woman obviously didn't know he could speak Japanese. Not that he expected her to, but still, he had to keep a smirk from spreading across his lips. She certainly had some colorful language. He caught that same stench again—the burnt ozone. It was more prominent than before, but Logan didn't bother to turn around to see what the woman was doing yet. If she was going to hurt him, that would just gave him more incentive to not trust her.
"And you are...a keibi? Mansion security?"
"The least thing from it, hotaru-kun." Now he was playing with her without the usual signal he was doing as such on his face. His expression was still placid, but still he wanted to see her expression. He purposely used "kun" instead of "san," a signal she was the inferior one between the pair. She leaned back further, obviously settling in despite his seemingly intimidating presence. She called him security again—a nickname that strangely didn't bother the feral. If he had to act like security, he might as well have the appropriate title alongside it.
"Yer new here, alone, and actin' like you lit a fuse that goes up yer ass—smell like it too. There Logan could use his own advice, but he'd like to think he had a greater reason to be troubled by his own thoughts. With his age and his actions, he was allowed to find isolation to settle his wild side—people expected it from him. When it came to someone like Sunpyre, however…
"What's yer real name? You've got a resemblance to someone… Can't put my finger on it." Logan's fingers went to the snaps on his jeans, unsnapping and unzipping in front of Sunpyre. His fingers slipped under the waistband, shoving down to peel the fabric from his flesh. "Most call me Wolverine, but call me Logan." He talked as he worked, finally managed to pull the jeans down his knees before he sat on the ground and began to tug them off. When Logan wore his uniform, he wore a skintight undergarment akin to a diver's suit that covered his lower region like a pair of boxers. There was nothing to see thanks to that. Logan didn't even think about what Sunpyre might think as he took his pants off.
Fortunate, as she had no desire to be a damn hypocrite. He could wander around the river, /in/ the river, but she wasn't allowed to sit here because she wasn'r dressed properly? He couldn't possibly be serious. The use of Japanese was a slight she hadn't thought of. It was a habit, native words slipping into her accented English. If she wanted to annoy someone, she'd use it exclusively and then give them an expectant look at the end.
She asked if he was mansion security, half-serious and half-not. "The least thing from it, hotaru-kun." Leyu's eye twitched. Did..he just call her a /firefly/? Leyu's eyes narrowed mutinously, hints of demonic red seeping in. She ought to raze the place to the ground and see what he thought of 'fireflies' then and--. Just as quickly, the red disappeared and Leyu jerked up as if she'd caught herself falling asleep or something. Her eyes weren't as narrowed and the brooding look was back. See how easy it was for you to think that way? How easy the thought came to your mind? And all because he called you firefly, used -kun. He ought to do it too; you're being a child, she scolded herself harshly.
"Goei-san has a sense of humor - I'll keep that in mind."
"Yer new here, alone, and actin' like you lit a fuse that goes up yer ass—smell like it too." She was certain she did not smell like burnt flesh. She knew what that scent was first hand. "I wasn't aware that there was a dress code," she tossed in dryly. "There
Can't change? The woman stared blankly at him. She wasn't trying to change anything; just pay for it with something other than her life. "Do I seem like a people-person to you? Why is it that you can wander around by yourself, but I can't? You're a strange, contradictory man." And what did he mean 'new'? "You should check your security logs too Goei-san - the fact that we have not met does not make me new to your X-Men." Granted, she didn't stay for a very long time - one and done - but she wasn't brand spanking new either. There were those on the groudns and in that mansion that might remember her.
Logan was rewarded with a face of stone. "Familiar?" That doesn't really bode well. Leyu wasn't on good terms with...about 99% of her Clan. Anyone that she reminded him of was probably someone she didn't like and certainly didn't want to be associated with. Any name he tossed out, assuming some freak connection was about to be revealed here, was likely to strike a nerve. Hell, just the possibility was striking enough. Leyu was tensing, not really liking where this could go when Wolverine abruptly changed the atmosphere - by stripping.
The dark-eyed woman could do little more than stare with wide eyes as the man just casually peeled his jeans off in front of her. He was obviously unconcerned, continuing on while taking the soaked article off. "Most call me Wolverine, but call me Logan." Leyu refused to shield her eyes like some virgin maiden or flush like a schoolgirl! She'd seen naked men before and Goei-san still had..ah..?? They covered him as boxers, but were far too clingy. Spandex? The thought made her choke on a smattering of laughter that she hadn't been prepared for.
...she didn't want to seem like she was /staring/ at him either. Stuck between pride and appearing to be a pervert, Leyu went with the obvious choice. Pride.
She didn't look away, but tried to not appear to be eyeballing him. Sunpyre chose to keep her eyes further up and away from the black-clad nether regions. She even managed not to blush. The young woman was quite proud of herself. "You may call be Leyu if you wish." Wolverine, Logan...hm, she still liked her choice best - obviously. Whatever he went by, she would stick with 'goei-san'.
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"A light to burn all the empires - so bright the sun is ashamed to rise and be." - My Chemical Romance
"Because if I don't go off on my own, I'm liable to kill someone, especially right now." Logan realized how that sounded and shrugged. He didn't mean right now as in he was going to kill Sunpyre, but right now as in his current condition. "I ain't exactly human, darlin'. I ain't always in control of my actions. I keep away to keep my humanity in check. You keep away because yer, what, scared of burnin' shit?" Some people had it worse off than Burnt Sakura over there. Last he checked, there was a red-headed woman in the mansion scared to death about overtaxing her abilities for fear of destroying a planet. Now there was a reason to be out here staring at the river (a half-naked Wolverine swimming probably helped too).
About her not being new, whatever. Logan could argue about that until he was blue in the face, but he suddenly found himself not caring. Instead, he focused on other things, like preparing to take his pants off.
"That's what I said," he grunted. "Lived in Japan for a bit. The planes in yer face are stirrin' up somethin' in my head, but can't place why." He glanced at Leyu quickly, but shrugged again. "Yer attitude reminds me of other people too, but all yer kind act the same." All hot-tempered, fiery individuals with a personality that was as hard as a metal wall. Just look at Sunpyre: What had Logan found out so far? She liked being alone and kept personal information close to her chest. Logan could be the same way too; that's why it was so easy to figure out.
Logan stopped taking off his pants after hearing a choking sound coming from Leyu's throat as he looked up at her. He gave her a cross between a scowl and 'What the hell is your problem?' before he sat down. And it was Leyu, huh? Liked he needed permission to call her by her name. "Well, Leyu, I think yer done thinkin'." He stood up again, leaving his pants where they were before extending a hand to her.His face was as perfectly calm as usual, but there was one thing he wasn't telling Leyu. The route he planned on taking to get back to his cabin was... well... swimming through Breakstone Lake. With his increased strength, it shouldn't be any problem "helping her up" and tossing her into the lake. He'd soon dive in as well. If he managed to get her into the lake, her expression would have to be priceless. Consider it Logan's way of saying, "Welcome to the X-Men's place."
"Because if I don't go off on my own, I'm liable to kill someone, especially right now."
It wasn't the answer she'd been expecting. Not that she had a range of answers she was bracing herself for, but if she did - that wouldn't be one of them. The blunt delivery had her blink twice too. She could appreciate the honesty, to be sure, but it was still not a response she would have been ready for. Why would he tell her that? Was this a threat? She hadn't thought he was so determined and serious about getting her to clear out.
"I ain't exactly human, darlin'. I ain't always in control of my actions. I keep away to keep my humanity in check. You keep away because yer, what, scared of burnin' shit?"
Leyu didn't know what to say about the 'not exactly human' part. None of them were, but she detected he meant in a different fashion. He used words like control and humanity and in check. He guessed her biggest problem was worrying about setting something on fire. Her responding laugh was hollow, "Not exactly." Setting someone on fire had actually been one of her less creative methods, but only because it was so slow and the smell was unpleasant. There would always be someone who had it worse, but that wasn't enough to make Sunpyre feel better or ease her gloom or even make her feel guilty for daring to brood. Saying your problem was worse than someone else's didn't really erase the problem. Destroying all of humanity was damn epic, but you wouldn't be thrilled with someone razing your city to the ground either.
It was like a..damn it, what was the saying? Oh, 'lesser of two evils'.
"Lived in Japan for a bit. The planes in yer face are stirrin' up somethin' in my head, but can't place why."
Great. Leyu shot the man an uneasy look as he continued to explain - saying her attitude and overall behavior [what little of it he'd been subject too] was familiar. His tone suggested that it wasn't familiar in a good way. Yeah well, most people felt that way, so all the dark-haired woman offered was a distinctly unapologetic look. And that was immediately followed by the return of unease. Familiar. Familiar like he could be allied with someone in her Clan familiar and she only had one ally in the whole damn Clan. Her cousin, Harada Kenuichio, wasn't super prone to making friends anywhere and most of those who called her cousin friend knew who she was or what she looked like. If her name and face didn't lead to identification, that was enough to knock this one out of that small category.
That left the rest of the Clan and she wanted no part of that. She opted to keep a leash on her last name. Let him find out on his own if he wanted to know so bad. She wasn't volunteering. She was choking down laughter at something in her head, but Logan didn't know that. It resulted in him giving her a kind of grumpy look that she suspected was fairly common to see on his masculine - and hairy, goodness - features. Now that she thought about it, this was a very hairy man here. Like extraordinarily so. She stared blatantly then, attempting to determine if it was natural or part of his mutation. He mentioned not being quite human, maybe that was part of what he meant.
'Wolverine', he'd said. Furry and ferocious creature. With that thought in mind, Leyu's expression was bemused when the Canadian addressed her.
"Well, Leyu, I think yer done thinkin'." An arched eyebrow served as the silent question 'Oh really?' Pants discarded as though he'd leave them there for whoever came by, he reached out for her. The plasma-wielder didn't lean back or flinch, but stared as though she'd never seen a hand before. What was he doing?Goei-san was a blank slate as he made this offer. Sunpyre looked at him suspiciously. Strange man/mansion security wants to take her to some cabin - that may or may not be there - and let her eat his food. She could stay there, do what she wanted. She could be left in peace and he'd leave her there too and do...whatever. Leyu was a stranger, some newbie on the grounds that could be a closet psychopath for all he knew. She could snap and he'd smell more than burnt sakura. He was a loner, self-admittedly not quite human, and prone to violence. She was a loner, vaguely familiar in features, and smelled like torched flowers...brooding by a lake. ...but she was hungry and she did kind of want to avoid being walked up on and questioned by whoever came by...again.
So this man, this stranger that she felt wasn't super fond of people in general much less her, would still put these things on the table. Things she did want. All she had to do was take his hand. Don't be stupid! Leyu paused, mocha orbs going from the feral's face to his hand. What do you have to lose?
And so she took his hand and--
SPLASH!
--felt ever so stupid afterwards. Yes, nothing to lose..except her a little bit of her dignity. The woman was too surprised to stop her momentum, or even think to try, as she was jerked up and tossed into the water. Sunpyre stayed under for a few moments, stewing moodily. When she did break the surface, it was slowly and only enough for narrowed red eyes and her nose - she had to breathe you know - to pop up. With her straight black locks plastered to her scalp and then spreading out at the water surface, she resembled some demonic sea creature. A small one. An angry little demon sea creature. The water wasn't bubbling, yet, but it was warmer than normal. Not unpleasantly though. Wolverine may feel as though he was diving into a nice little hot tub rather than a cool lake. Though the closer one ventured to the moody little Asian woman, the hotter the water would be.
--------------------
"A light to burn all the empires - so bright the sun is ashamed to rise and be." - My Chemical Romance
At least she was a suspicious sort. That was a good thing. Though he got the feeling she wasn't suspicious of him, but rather of the place she was going to. That rarely happened for the feral--most people were suspicious of him, especially after he revealed he could kill someone. What an odd bird, this one. Or fire bird. Whatever. Seemed like she wasn't about to reveal why she was out here either if she wasn't scared of burning things down. Eventually her small hand curled into his thicker one and Logan wrapped his fingers around her hand. With a yank of strength, careful not to pull her arm out of socket, she was lifted off the ground and flung into the lake. Logan turned around, put his hands to his hips, and shrugged. That was slightly entertaining.
When Leyu finally broke the surface, eyes as cold as ice despite her abilities, Logan paid her little attention as he grabbed his pants, wrapped them around his hand, and dove in. The water was slightly warmer than usual, but nothing Logan couldn't handle. Maybe if Sunpyre understood his sudden fascination with water, she'd become more lenient with her sudden swimming lesson. The thrill of not sinking to the ground and viciously trying to stay afloat was strangely serene to the feral, who never pictured himself as a waterbug. But then again, maybe the feeling would only be short-lived as its novelty wore off.
"Quit yer angry look," Logan muttered as he surfaced, water rippling against his chin. "It's just water. Follow me." He dove under, skimming just underneath the surface, the muscles in his arms and legs at work. His heels bobbed out of the water as he kicked, still enjoying his new-found freedom. He supposed this was the closest he'd ever feel like flying on his own, completely weightless and able to move all his limbs without fear of hurting or breaking something. As he swam, keeping his pace slow to allow Leyu to keep pace, he finally emerged toward the treeline, using his hand to slick back his hair. He unraveled his pants and slung them over his shoulder, glancing back to make sure Sunpyre made it one piece.
"I would start a fire once we go there, but I doubt you need it to dry off." Saying nothing more, he ended up walking through his turf--the woods. The place hadn't changed much while he was away; he knew every nuance outside of the newest growths. He dodged stray limbs with ease, knew where to walk to keep clear of pricker bushes, but seemed to forget unlike Leyu, he didn't have to worry about poison ivy or poison oak that may be sprouting from the ground. The path he took to his cabin wasn't cleared away until several yards in where a faint clearing sprouted. The dirt trail was cloaked by trees and bushes, and Logan quietly picked a burr from the hair on his arm as he joined the path. After several moments of walking the trail, he finally reached the small cabin he called home once in awhile. The scent of burning smoke was still in the air.
"Mind lighting this for me?" He gathered cut timber into the firepit before throwing his pants near the pit and walked into the cabin. If she couldn't, he'd light the fire with some flint he had inside his home. He came back out with a tin pan filled with lukewarm stew, aiming to heat Leyu's dinner by hand over the fire. Sure Sunpyre could have probably done it herself, but Logan had a sinking feeling Leyu hadn't been out camping much. He glanced at her, nodded his head to a log by the firepit to take a seat, and let the light of the flames dance across his face.
His hand was beginning to hurt and turn red as he held the pot, but he thought nothing of it as he stirred the edible contents with a carved spoon. Thick pieces of carrots, potatoes, and celery, swam in a simmering pot of freshly caught, skinned, and cooked rabbit. Most people didn't know this, but living on just rabbit meat could kill a person. Rabbit meat was too lean to provide any suitable nutrients and needed other foods--like vegetables--to eat with it. Logan could be an interesting man with all he learned about wildlife. "This should be done," he said, taking a wooden bowl beside him, pouring some stew inside for Sunpyre to take, and allowed the carved spoon to slip inside. By the time he put the pot on a separate log and handed the bowl to Leyu, flesh had begun to bubble on his hand.
But in seconds, there was no harm there. No blisters, no burn, no anything to show Logan had scorched himself. " So he sat on the log opposite of Leyu, putting his hands toward the fire, staying silent all awhile to allow Sunpyre to continue contemplating whatever she was thinking about by the lake.
"Quit yer angry look," he muttered, obviously unconcerned about her mood swings. "It's just water. Follow me." He started to swim away and Leyu remained where she was for a moment. She wasn't quite sulking, just giving him some room in case he tried something cute like grabbing her and holding her under the water. That he could toss her like that one-handed implied he was considerably strong. Granted, his muscled form implied a high level of strength as it was, and it wasn't like Leyu was the heaviest of people, but still. Super strength meant he'd have no problem yanking her under water for his own amusement while she flailed around. She could try to torch him, but that took effort underwater. Effort that would probably draw unwanted attention.
So she waited until he was further away before kicking off herself, grumbling distinctly un-lady-like language under her breath, things about stupid guards and their messed up sense of humor.
Leyu, in typical fire-child fashion, wasn't super fond of water...or being thrown into it. However, she was a strong swimmer. She wouldn't be able to keep up without Logan purposefully slowing down, but he wouldn't have to come to a complete stop-and-wait either. "I would start a fire once we go there, but I doubt you need it to dry off." Leyu huffed, but didn't contradict him. Again, she waited until he was far enough away to not be able to knock her back into the water before climbing out herself. She looked down at herself. "At least I don't have white on." While it was all well and good for Wolverine to just wander around half-naked, Sunpyre felt zero motivation to do the same.
Leyu stared at the man just wandering into the wooded area. The fact that there was no trail where he was walking told her that this really was his turf and that she would indeed not be bothered way out here. The petite woman frowned at the unknown plant life. It'd be just her luck to hit something poisonous. At least she was fortunate enough to be allergy free. She couldn't burn a path through. There was no way to control it; she'd burn the whole forest down. Well..she had on long pants, covered shoes, and long sleeves. She'd be alright. So the woman trudged through, lest Logan get so far that she lost him. And wouldn't keibi-san be so thrilled to discover the hotaru had managed to get herself lost on his territory.
Eventually, they did come across a path. Maybe that was more like a shortcut then? Whatever, they were here and she only had a few burrs sticking to her, one or two leaves in her hair. Leaves of three, leave them be. She hadn't seen anything worrisome on the way through and her long-sleeved, long-pant combo really was helpful. A slightly smokey smell told her of fire ahead.
"Mind lighting this for me?"
Dark mocha orbs shifted to the firepit he'd indicated. She shrugged. "Okay." The woman moved to a spot clear of anything that might accidentally lead to setting the rest of the place on fire. "The object is to make fire, not /ashes/," she reminded/coached herself quietly. Leyu might not have said anything at all if she'd been aware that Wolverine's sensitive ears would hear her as though she'd spoken at normal volumes.
Trying to not turn the wood to ash in addition to avoiding activation of her sheath required too much policing. So the woman just made to be clear of anything. Maybe I should warn him about the light? Eh, this would only take a second and it wasn't like it'd blind him. And so Leyu direct a tiny orb of plasma fire at the wood. Tiny as it was, she noted with agitation, it was still enough to kick up her sheath. It all happened at once, summon tiny orb, the demon-eyes and sheath kicks in. When no further action occurred, the sheath died away along with the red glow in her eyes. At least my clothes are fairly dry. Flash freeze, meet flash dry.
Sunpyre sat down like a good little fire-started. Not being a picky eater, Leyu didn't care what the man produced as food. It was food and it wouldn't kill her - in theory - so she was set. She could eat it cold too, but her powers made sure that wasn't much of an issue. That didn't stop the man from coming out with a pot and tin. She supposed it was soup of some sort. Everything was fine and normal and then keibi-san decided to stick his hand in the fire. Which would have been fine if Leyu knew his power set. Except she didn't and so, predictably, she stormed over and yanked his arm back. Annoyed, she started to say, "[i]Goei no baka - you can't just do--" and was summarily silenced when his arm healed right in front of her. In the span of seconds, it was like nothing had happened. Blink. Confusion. "Or maybe you can." He could heal himeself. "Well that must be very convenient," she noted absently while letting go.
Sunpyre sat back down, careful not to just plop onto something that could roll under her weight, and Logan - after reacting however he was going to react - went back to cooking.
"This should be done," he said. Sunpyre took the bowl and spoon. She thought to pause and investigate, make sure he didn't - I don't know, throw some bugs in there, but she'd eaten those before too, She'd eaten a variety of meals in her comparatively short life, if you were going to put her 24 years to Logan's 60+. Whatever was hiding out in Xavier's forest was the least of her worries. The woman stared blankly at the bubbling flesh, hard to miss when he'd handed her the food, but - just like before - it healed in seconds. All evidence of the fire-damage gone as though he'd never done it at all. It was fascinating, being something she'd never seen before. And with her prideful, frank nature, Leyu felt no shame in just staring at the phenomenon. No matter how she stared, the skin remained as it was. This wasn't an illusion or trick, he'd really stuck in hand in fire, left it there to cook right along with the food, and then..healed it. Or rather, it healed itself. He didn't appear to put any effort into the act.
Not healing himself, but self-healing. Automatic.
"
Sunpyre didn't go anywhere, just remained on the log. She'd gotten used to him roaming around with practically nothing on anyway. The woman sat peacefully with her meal, eating away - it was good even though she wasn't entirely sure what meat he had in here. Even when finished, she kind of sat there, frowning to herself. Her thoughts had, miraculously, gotten good and morbid when she opened her mouth to ask an equally morbid question. "Ne, goei-san, what are you...here for?" She had been about to ask what you were supposed to feel after killing someone. What? He'd all but said he had earlier. Liable to kill,not exactly human, humanity in check. He had to know. And since he seemed to know everything she should and shouldn't be doing, maybe he could tell her that too. Leyu felt like maybe she had reacted in an unusual fashion. Life was supposed to be precious right? Death should make you value life. But Sunpyre distinctly remembered feeling as though it was nothing in the grand scheme of things, even her own. But that question was too close to the chest and she wasn't the bleeding heart, confess all in the span a day type. Granted, she felt it was easier ask such a morbid question to the stranger here than someone she was better acquainted with. Easier not to care about his reaction afterwards.
While Wolverine may take the pause to be that that wasn't actually the first question that popped into her head, her expression indicated she did kind of want to know. Of course, maybe he wouldn't tell her. Maybe it was a secret. Maybe he had no idea what he was here for. He could just be here for lack of anything better to do or because - I don't know - his..wife or something lived here. He could even tell her a lie. It could be anything. However, if he was willing to plainly say that he kept to himself for the sake of not killing people and that he had to work at checking himself and his inhuman tendencies..how bad could it be?
--------------------
"A light to burn all the empires - so bright the sun is ashamed to rise and be." - My Chemical Romance
As Sunpyre leaped up to take his hand out of the fire, Logan's expression doured as his brow fizzled into irritation. As her eyes watched the skin reform itself, Leyu's surprise turned into confusion as she finally walked away. He grunted, recooking her meal, and said, "Don't do that again. I told ya, I ain't human. Never approach me from the side that fast." He hated how fast the instinct came at him to snap his elbow into Leyu's gut and have the contents of the meal coat her face. He was used to his body acting on pure instinct, but this... this was less survival and more play. He wanted to enjoy the person's expression as if he was toying with his prey before he killed them.
He shrugged the feeling away.
Leyu remained silent the rest of the time, leaving Logan just as quiet. He preferred it this way. No talking made things get done quicker. And the less distractions Logan had, the happier everyone was going to be. He finally retracted the pan, poured the stew, and handed it to Leyu. He determined the woman liked to stare a lot, or hardly got out in the world. First she watched him take off his clothes, then watched, unabashedly, as his hand healed. Was he really that interesting to look at? Like yer in a damn zoo. He shook the thought from his head. He could understand curiosity--he wasn't being gawked at, merely... watched... or admired?
With cooking done and in her hands, Logan sat and warmed himself by the fire, propping his arms against his knees and slouching forward. He bent his head and ran his hand through his hair, shaking the tresses to let the stray beads of water out. Wiping his wet hand on his shorts, he clasped his hands together and stared into the fire.
"Ne, goei-san, what are you...here for?"
He looked up at her over the tips of the flames, her form slightly distorted through the wavering lines of heat. Given her internal thoughts and how distant she once appeared while at the lake, he almost considered her question philosophical, akin to, 'What is the meaning of your life?' Really, how in the hell was he supposed to know? But he'd take her question more literally, assume she was asking about here and now. Peering back into the flame while swatting a bug away from his nape, he shrugged before his raspy voice answered.
"You ever lived in there?" He threw a thumb towards the mansion. "It ain't all sunshine and rainbows. Get a bunch of people together that don't see eye-to-eye and you got yerself a brawl waitin' to happen." And he'd done it too, fist to face without any questions. "It's easier out here. Live or die, hunter or prey. I only come out here when I need to get away." For whatever reason that was, really. But if her question was alluding to another reason, such as why he was here with the X-Men, he supposed he could answer that too.
"I ain't like the other X-Men, but I can respect their dream. They've helped me a lot over the years. The most I can do is help 'em in return." His fingers absentmindedly rubbed the skin between his knuckles, peering back toward Leyu. "The way I see it, they're a buncha goodie-shoes that don't know how to kill someone when it comes down to it. That's why they've got me. Not a lot agree with my methods, but I get the job done when they can't. If they can't see that, then odds are I've punched in 'em in the face a few times." He waved his hands around him. "Those nights are when you'll find me here. Easier to get away than it is to keep beatin' sense into heads."
He looked over to Sunpyre again, still rubbing his knuckles. "So what brings you here, darlin'? Outside of broodin' like you can't figure out how to yank the stick outta yer ass." He gave a sly smile afterwards, looking more like a chuckling fox than a human in the process.
He gave her that grumpy look again after she let his hand go. "Don't do that again. I told ya, I ain't human. Never approach me from the side that fast." Dark brown orbs blinked at the man. He kept saying he wasn't human. Not human. Liable to kill. Save his humanity. And yet no sense of preservation kicked in. The woman didn't scramble away or gain a more wary look. Leyu was really just wondering if the man wasn't simply trying to scare her off so he could be alone. He could just say so. Goei-san didn't seem the beat-around-the-bush type. Clearly, he wouldn't go through the trouble of bringing her over here just to kick her out. She appreciated the warning though, recalling how easily he'd tossed her earlier. One good swing when she wasn't ready...
"I'll be sure to make noise next time." She could wear a bell too.
"You ever lived in there?" The woman shook her head. "I left." Staying hadn't been a thought entertained in her head for any period of time. Sunpyre had bolted, almost immediately. Hell, she didn't even stay long enough to heal up to 100%. Oh, she wasn't limping away from the mansion that day, but she could have put another day or two of medical attention to good use. But she didn't. Had to get out, had to go, had to think. Sometimes, she wondered what would have happened if she'd stayed. Really, it was an easy guess. She wouldn't have..done what she did right? Or would she have tried it under their noses? Resisted long enough to dash out. Maybe it'd have been a bigger fallout, a secret she wouldn't be able to even /try/ to bury.
"It ain't all sunshine and rainbows. Get a bunch of people together that don't see eye-to-eye and you got yerself a brawl waitin' to happen." Sunpyre looked towards the mansion, pensive. Well, she was used to not getting along with people. It happened; it happened a lot actually. She kind of expected it usually. "It's easier out here. Live or die, hunter or prey. I only come out here when I need to get away." Easier out here. Yes, if you could contain yourself. She'd gone 'out here' and look what she did! "Why do you go back in if it's better out here?" The way he described it, there was zero motive to subject yourself to people you don't like.
"I ain't like the other X-Men, but I can respect their dream. They've helped me a lot over the years. The most I can do is help 'em in return." ... Help in return. She wondered what kind of help would make this man, one worried about losing his humanity still, stay around. But some things were to close to the chest. She knew that better than anyone, so she didn't ask about the help. Beyond guessing he'd draw a line on that one, the woman wasn't certain she wanted to know.
"The way I see it, they're a buncha goodie-shoes that don't know how to kill someone when it comes down to it. [...]." -- "Those nights are when you'll find me here. Easier to get away than it is to keep beatin' sense into heads."
Leyu wasn't sure she was in a position to determine if she was bothered by more fatal measure of combat. Technically, it should be no problem. It clearly hadn't been a problem before, when she-- Anyway. But now, what about now? Could she end a life, maybe of one who deserved it, without flashing back to killing someone who didn't? It really sounded like they were using this man as a glorified sweeper. Shadow. Personal mercenary exclusive to their use. Are they really such goodie-shoes if they're willing to let him do what must be done? They don't like it, but no one stops him. Though it was arguable on how wise it'd be to try it, especially during the heat of a mission. It sounds..convenient..keeping their hands seemingly clean." She didn't like it. Would that be her next? Doing what had to be done. The dirty work.
"So what brings you here, darlin'? Outside of broodin' like you can't figure out how to yank the stick outta yer ass." His expression this time was not grumpy, but she could tell she was being poked fun at regardless. The smile...had a..hm. She couldn't place her finger on it. Such an odd man, Logan-goei-san was. "I've decided not to concern myself with your fascination for my ass goei-san." He'd referenced her ass several times. Granted, he was in the middle of insulting her every time, but he still mentioned it repeatedly. With her knees drawn up, Leyu's petite form lent itself well to making her look younger than her 24 years. Which, again, was quite short in comparison to present company - but still made her an adult. "I'm..here to pay a debt goei-san." Not for help rendered by the X-Men - it'd been the other way around before. But she'd help now and pray she found absolution along the way.
"A heavy debt I will try to repay by helping the X-Men accomplish whatever they wish. However, I don't...get along well with others." Wasn't used to trying really. "And my powers are not conducive to 'peaceful resolutions'. Perhaps I should build a separate residence on the grounds too."
--------------------
"A light to burn all the empires - so bright the sun is ashamed to rise and be." - My Chemical Romance
"I've decided not to concern myself with your fascination for my ass goei-san."
"Ain't not harm in complimentin' those with a good lookin' ass." If he was complimenting her, which was debatable. He was hoping she'd provide more details in concerns of her debt. It sounded... suspicious, like a blood-debt. There weren't a lot of debts people would pay off by coming to a place that seemed uncomfortable to them. While he might not have liked to stay in the mansion at all times, at least he was comfortable there, or as comfortable as he could be. For Leyu, however, it seemed the opposite was true. She wanted to get as far away as possible, no matter who her company was.
And there she went--she officially confirmed his suspicions. She wasn't comfortable with the mansion or the people. Though given what he overheard in her mumbling when trying to start a fire, he figured out her powers weren't easily controllable. He let a fortress of silence rise around him, listening to the fire cackle on the logs. He moved only enough to grab another log and throw it on the fire, causing the flame to rise and wood to pop. A stray ember was tossed to the side, quickly dying before it touched land.
"You can't ignore 'em forever. Stay away too long and they'll start lookin' fer ya. Once an X-Man, always an X-Man." He could attest to his own advice being true. While there were times he hated to admit it, the X-Men were a family. Hurt one of them and the rest would come flocking. He rubbed his hairy arms, one after the other, checking to see how dry he was. Enough that he could put on a pair of clothes without soaking them. "I'll be back." He stood up and walked to the cabin, disappearing from sight.
He came back out a few minutes later, a fresh pair of jeans on and cowboy boots crunching against the grass. He straightened out the collar of a flannel button-up shirt around his neck before buttoning it from the bottom instead of the top. He wasn't able to button it all the way given the expansion of muscles in his chest. Sleeves torn off to allow his arms ample movement and a t-shirt underneath to keep his torso covered, he was going into a school and he didn't want to look like a cast member of the Village People.
On top of his head sat a worn tan-colored cowboy hat, covering his two-peaked hair. "Guess it's time to follow my own advice. Been gone for three months; can't avoid 'em forever." Walking further towards the fire, he picked up his pants and threw them over the log, caring little as to what happened to them while he stayed away from the cabin. "Put out the fire once you leave. Stay as long as ya like, just don't burn anything." He made a move to walk away down the path, pausing briefly as he turned around. "Shiro," he said, snapping his fingers. "Shiro Yoshida, that's who you remind me of. If that's the case," Logan turned back around, walking down the path, "then I think we're gonna have some problems."
From anyone else, that might have been some creepy, lecher comment. With Logan though, she wasn't sure she should take that at face value. Goei-san seemed the sort to just say what he wanted and you could feel however you wanted to about it. He'd still be going about his business whether you misunderstood it or not. On the one hand, it was a respectable habit, she tended to do the same. On the other hand, that kind of miscommunication could be more trouble than it was worth in some situations. Fortunately, Sunpyre wasn't in one of her 'moods' where any and everything was a potential offense. The woman imagined this encounter would have gone in a vastly different direction if either of them had been in a particular mood.
Leyu didn't do well with people. Maybe she let interactions with her Clan color her habits too much. But it was difficult to hold much hope for random strangers when your own blood family was so... Leyu hadn't yet discovered the one-word descriptor for the Yashida/Yoshida Clan. Also not helpful was her natural not-a-people-person persona. She wasn't cheerful or magnetic. Not the showstopping type or the one needing spotlight. Leyu wasn't a light-up-the-room-with-a-smile woman. She was..well.. Honestly, Leyu hadn't come up with the one word descriptor for herself either, but she could give you a long list of words she /wasn't/. None of that lent itself well to getting on with people. But it wasn't like she did it on purpose either. ...not all the time. What? It was just easier to be alone sometimes!
"It's just easier to be alone sometimes. I don't do it purposefully." Come looking for her? Would they actually do that? Sure, she's had people track her down before, but not out of...care for her. Not because she was 'part of the team'. The petite woman could put some jaded spin on it. She could say they just wanted to track the investment, keep track of the toy soldiers on roster. But she didn't know that, hadn't stayed long enough to even begin to justify thinking that. Besides..she didn't think Logan meant it that way. Debatable whether he'd say so or not, warn her away.
"I'll be back." Leyu had already polished off the stew. I guess I was hungrier than I thought. The dark-haired young adult continued to stare into the fire like a fortuneteller does her crystal ball. Was this really going to work for her? It has to, there is no other way. So she'd do what she always did - deal, one way or the other. Logan came back out and she blinked at the distinctly western-flavored clothing. Not Western as in the U.S. Western, but like..cowboy? Not obnoxious costume cowboy, but just... Western. At least she didn't stare this time. It was rude to stare, she'd been taught. Keep your head down and your gaze, when necessary brief and demure and virginal. How the hell do you keep your gaze 'virginal'? So now she looked and gazed and stared until she was good and satisfied that she had fully taken everything in.
Missing things could get you killed.
These clothes, they looked, um, fitted too. Very fitted. Maybe it was a coincidence. Probably. Fluke. She didn't imagine Logan cared terribly for shopping. He'd probably just deal with it until the clothes were ripped beyond use. "Guess it's time to follow my own advice. Been gone for three months; can't avoid 'em forever."
Careful, Sunpyre might try to beat that record just by camping out around here. ...as soon as she learned to properly camp. He told her that she could stay as long as she pleased. Ground rules? Don't burn anything and, if she did leave, put the fire out. Leyu nodded mutely, staring into the fire as Wolverine paused to utter the one name - or one of the names - she did /not/ want to hear. "Shiro,"
Leyu closed her eyes and counted to ten. This man could not possibly call that idiot a friend. It was impossible! ..she was right.
"Shiro Yoshida, that's who you remind me of. If that's the case," -- "then I think we're gonna have some problems."
"That man...has nothing to do with me. He is no one I am connected with." Maybe he heard her, maybe not, but saying that out loud was as much for her benefit as anything else. It was most unfortunate that they both had features traceable back to--ugh, to their shared...sperm donor. It wasn't encouraging for Leyu, who'd rather hoped she favored her mother over anything. And she did, actually, there were just one or two solid features from dear old dad and Shiro had them too. Her lips pressed into a line and she counted to twenty in her native tongue and back again as slowly as possible. Logan had, after all, declared that she was not to burn anything.
Leyu's eyes fell on a harmless-looking piece of wood. What about incinerate? Ever heard of skeet shooting? Well Leyu hasn't, but I'll tell you...using plasma bolts is way more satisfying.
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"A light to burn all the empires - so bright the sun is ashamed to rise and be." - My Chemical Romance
He made his way through the woods, the scent of smoke mingling with the scent of who he believed to be Wolverine. It certainly reminded him of the gruff Canadian, but it was...how to put it? A more intense scent than before? It was as though Wolverine was exuding a scent that was closer to an animal in its territory than it had been before. He wasn't sure what could bring that on. He hadn't gotten a clear view of Wolverine as he walked out, though he could smell that the man was nearby, and he had apparently left the woods only moments before. The obvious explanation, then, was that Wolverine had lit and fire and put it out before heading to the mansion. Except Wolverine was, as mentioned earlier, a Canadian, and was feral as well. He doubted this temperature would have bothered the man enough to bother with a fire.
Then there was the fact that the smoke wasn't dissipating. The smell was too strong for it to just be the last embers of a fire that was as good as dead. Wolverine wasn't interested in keeping something out here a secret--quite apart from the fact that he wouldn't have hidden something so close to a school that was rapidly filling up with the next generation of people with strange and unusual powers, he would have intercepted the Native American by now and told him to mind his own business. Politely, of course. So, curiosity growing, James made his way further into the forest. It took virtually no time at all to find the cabin--Logan's scent intensified around the area, mixing with a second scent, also a human, and who he believed was still in the cabin. Unless they had flown out, which he supposed was possible, but, he doubted it. He also smelled something else, something akin to the smell that surrounded Bobby after Gideon overloaded his body with solar energy and altered his mutation. Whoever was inside could harness solar energy--or replicate it.
That explained the still-going fire in more ways than one.
James reached up and knocked on the door, which was actually shorter than he was. "Anyone alive in there? I smell an angry little feral with a cigar fetish, but he's already gone, so I figured I'd come see if he killed you."
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Health Technology
Technology is the practical application of knowledge. Three ways to describe health care technology include its material nature, its purpose, and its stage of diffusion.
Material Nature
For many people, the term "technology" connotes "hardware" or other mechanical devices or instrumentation; to others, it is a short form of "information technology" such as computer software. However, the practical application of knowledge in health care is quite broad. Broad categories of health technology include the following.
Purpose or Application
Technologies can also be grouped according to their health care purpose, i.e.:
Prevention: protect against disease by preventing it from occurring, reducing the risk of its occurrence, or limiting its extent or sequelae (e.g., immunization, hospital infection control program, fluoridated water supply)
Not all technologies fall neatly into single categories. Many tests and other technologies used for diagnosis also are used for screening. (The probability that a patient has a disease or other health condition is greatly affected by whether these technologies are used for screening asymptomatic patients or diagnosing symptomatic patients.) Some technologies are used for diagnosis as well as treatment, e.g., coronary angiography to diagnose heart disease and to monitor coronary angioplasty. Implantable cardioverter defibrillators detect potentially life-threatening heart arrhythmias and deliver electrical pulses to restore normal heart rhythm. Electronic patient record systems can support all of these technological purposes or applications.
Certain "boundary-crossing" or "hybrid" technologies combine characteristics of drugs, devices or other major categories of technology (Goodman 1993; Lewin Group 2001). Among the many examples of these are: photodynamic therapy, in which drugs are laser-activated (e.g., for targeted destruction of cancer cells); local drug delivery technologies (e.g., implantable drug pumps and drug inhalers); spermicidal condoms; and bioartificial organs that combine natural tissues and artificial components. Examples of hybrid technologies that have complicated regulatory approval and coverage decisions in recent years are gallstone lithotripters (used with stone-dissolving drugs) (Zeman 1991), positron-emission tomography (PET, used with radiopharmaceuticals) (Coleman 1992), and metered-dose inhalers (Massa 2002).
Stage of Diffusion
Technologies may be assessed at different stages of diffusion and maturity. In general, health care technologies may be described as being:
Future: in a conceptual stage, anticipated, or in the earliest stages of development
Experimental: undergoing bench or laboratory testing using animals or other models
Established: considered by providers to be a standard approach to a particular condition or indication and diffused into general use
Obsolete/outmoded/abandoned: superseded by other technologies or demonstrated to be ineffective or harmful
Often, these stages are not clearly delineated, and technologies do not necessarily mature through them in a linear fashion. A technology may be investigational for certain indications, established for others, and outmoded or abandoned for still others, such as autologous bone marrow transplantation with high-dose chemotherapy for certain types of advanced cancers. Many technologies undergo multiple incremental innovations after their initial acceptance into general practice (Gelijns and Rosenberg 1994; Reiser 1994). Further, a technology that was once considered obsolete may return to established use for a better defined or entirely different clinical purpose. A prominent example is thalidomide, whose use as a sedative during pregnancy was halted more than 40 years ago when it was found to induce severe fetal malformation, but which is now used to treat such conditions as leprosy, advanced multiple myeloma, chronic graft vs. host disease, and certain complications of HIV infection (Baidas 2002).
Health Technology Assessment
Health technology assessment is the systematic evaluation of properties, effects or other impacts of health technology. The main purpose of HTA is to inform policymaking for technology in health care, where policymaking is used in the broad sense to include decisions made at, e.g., the individual or patient level, the level of the health care provider or institution, or at the regional, national and international levels. HTA may address the direct and intended consequences of technologies as well as their indirect and unintended consequences. HTA is conducted by interdisciplinary groups using explicit analytical frameworks, drawing from a variety of methods.
Purposes of HTA
HTA can be used in many ways to advise or inform technology-related policymaking. Among these are to advise or inform:
Regulatory agencies such as the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) about whether to permit the commercial use (e.g., marketing) of a drug, device or other technology
Health care payers, providers, and employers about whether technologies should be included in health benefits plans or disease management programs, addressing coverage (whether or not to pay) and reimbursement (how much to pay)
Clinicians and patients about the appropriate use of health care interventions for a particular patient's clinical needs and circumstances
Health professional associations about the role of a technology in clinical protocols or practice guidelines
Lawmakers and other political leaders about policies concerning technological innovation, research and development, regulation, payment and delivery of health care
Health care product companies about product development and marketing decisions
Investors and companies concerning venture capital funding, acquisitions and divestitures, and other transactions concerning health care product and service companies
HTA contributes in many ways to the knowledge base for improving the quality of health care, especially to support development and updating of a wide spectrum of standards, guidelines, and other health care policies. For example, the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO) and the National Committee for Quality Assurance (NCQA) set standards for measuring quality of care and services of hospitals, managed care organizations, long-term care facilities, hospices, ambulatory care centers, and other health care institutions. Health professional associations (e.g., American College of Cardiology, American College of Physicians, American College of Radiology, American Medical Association) and special panels (e.g., the US Preventive Services Task Force of the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality) develop clinical practice guidelines, standards, and other statements regarding the appropriate use of technologies. Standards-setting organizations such as the American National Standards Institute and the American Society for Testing and Materials coordinate development of voluntary national consensus standards for the manufacture, use and reuse of health devices and their materials and components.
As noted above, HTA can be used to support decisionmaking by clinicians and patients. The term evidence-based medicine refers to the use of current best evidence from scientific and medical research, and the application of clinical experience and observation, in making decisions about the care of individual patients. This has prompted the appearance of many useful resources, including:
Evidence-Based Medicine (a joint product of the American College of Physicians and the BMJ Publishing Group), a journal digest of articles selected from international medical journals
"Users' guides to the medical literature," a series of more than 30 articles by the Evidence-Based Medicine Working Group published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, ranging from (Oxman 1993) to (Guyatt 2000)
Basic HTA Orientations
The impetus for an HTA is not necessarily a technology. Three basic orientations to HTA are as follows.
Technology-oriented assessments are intended to determine the characteristics or impacts of particular technologies. For example, a government agency may want to determine the clinical, economic, social, professional, or industrial impacts of population-based cancer screening, cochlear implants, or other particular interventions.
Problem-oriented assessments focus on solutions or strategies for managing a particular problem for which alternative or complementary technologies might be used. For example, clinicians and providers concerned with the problem of diagnosis of dementia may call for the development of clinical practice guidelines involving some combination or sequence of clinical history, neurological examination, and diagnostic imaging using various modalities..
Project-oriented assessments focus on a local placement or use of a technology in a particular institution, program, or other designated project. For example, this may arise when a hospital must decide whether or not to purchase a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) unit, considering the facilities, personnel, and other resources needed to install and operate an MRI unit; the hospital's financial status; local market potential for MRI services; competitive factors; etc.
These basic assessment orientations can overlap and complement one another. Certainly, all three types could draw upon a common body of scientific evidence and other information. A technology-oriented assessment may address the range of problems for which the technology might be used and how appropriate the technology might be for different types of local settings (e.g., inpatient versus outpatient). A problem-oriented assessment, examining the effects or other impacts of alternative technologies on a given problem, may incorporate multiple, focused (i.e., on the problem at hand) technology-oriented assessments. A project-oriented assessment would consider the range of impacts of a technology or its alternatives in a given setting, as well as the role or usefulness of that technology for various problems. Although the information used in a project-oriented assessment by a particular hospital may include findings of pertinent technology- and problem-oriented assessments, local data collection and analysis may be required to determine what is sensible for that hospital. Thus, many HTAs will blend aspects of all three basic orientations.
Timing of Assessment
There is no single correct time to conduct an HTA. It is conducted to meet the needs of a variety of policymakers seeking assessment information throughout the lifecycles of technologies. Investors, regulators, payers, hospital managers and others tend to make decisions about technologies at particular junctures, and each may subsequently reassess technologies. Indeed, the determination of a technology's stage of diffusion may be the primary purpose of an assessment. For insurers and other payers, technologies that are deemed experimental or investigational are usually excluded from coverage, whereas those that are established or generally accepted are usually eligible for coverage (Newcomer 1990; Reiser 1994; Singer 2001).
There are tradeoffs inherent in decisions regarding the timing for HTA. On one hand, the earlier a technology is assessed, the more likely its diffusion can be curtailed if it is unsafe or ineffective (McKinlay 1981). From centuries' old purging and bloodletting to the more contemporary autologous bone marrow transplantation with high-dose chemotherapy for advanced breast cancer, the list of poorly evaluated technologies that diffused into general practice before being found to be ineffective and/or harmful continues to grow. Box 3 shows examples of health care technologies found to be ineffective or harmful after being widely diffused.
On the other hand, to regard the findings of an early assessment as definitive or final may be misleading. An investigational technology may not yet be perfected; its users may not yet be proficient; its costs may not yet have stabilized; it may not have been applied in enough circumstances to recognize its potential benefits; and its long-term outcomes may not yet be known (Mowatt 1997). As one technology assessor concluded about the problems of when-to-assess: "It's always too early until, unfortunately, it's suddenly too late!" (Buxton 1987). Further, the "moving target problem" can complicate HTA (Goodman 1996). By the time a HTA is conducted, reviewed and disseminated, its findings may be outdated by changes in a technology, in how it is used, or in its technological alternatives for a given problem.
Some payers provide conditional coverage for selected investigational technologies in order to compile evidence on safety, effectiveness, cost, etc., for making more informed coverage policies. In these instances, payers cover the use of a technology only under certain conditions, such as where patients are enrolled in an RCT at certain participating medical centers. This arrangement offers a way to balance the need for evidence with the demand for access and financially compensated care. Depending on the type of technology involved, it further enables refinement of technique or delivery, and building of experience and expertise among physicians and other providers (Beebe 1997; Brenner 2002; McGivney 1992; Sheingold 1998; Medical Technology Leadership Forum 1999; Wood 2001).
Box 3 Examples of Health Care Technologies Found to be Ineffective or Harmful After Being Widely Diffused
Despite the value of conditional coverage in principle, some observers have raised practical and ethical concerns about their implementation. Among these are that: (1) if conditional coverage is initiated after a technology has diffused, some patients who had expected to get a procedure may be denied it if they are not enrolled in a trial; (2) some patients who would be interested in enrolling in a covered trial are not located near a participating center and are therefore denied access; (3) patients and physicians who believe in the effectiveness of the technology may be unwilling to be involved in an RCT, including some who decide to finance the technology outside of the trial and therefore diminish enrollment, (4) the indications for using the technology in the conditional coverage trial may be too broad or too narrow to properly reflect the potential safety and effectiveness of the technology; and (5) the technology continues to evolve during the conditional coverage process, to the point where the trial findings are of diminished relevance (Berger 2001; Cooper 2001).
Properties and Impacts Assessed
What is assessed in HTA? HTA may involve the investigation of one or more properties, impacts, or other attributes of health technologies or applications. In general, these include the following.
Technical properties
Safety
Efficacy and/or effectiveness
Economic attributes or impacts
Social, legal, ethical and/or political impacts
Technical properties include performance characteristics and conformity with specifications for design, composition, manufacturing, tolerances, reliability, ease of use, maintenance, etc. Safety is a judgment of the acceptability of risk (a measure of the probability of an adverse outcome and its severity) associated with using a technology in a given situation, e.g., for a patient with a particular health problem, by a clinician with certain training, and/or in a specified treatment setting.
Efficacy and effectiveness both refer to how well a technology works to improve patient health, usually based on changes in one or more pertinent health outcomes or "endpoints" as described below. A technology that works under carefully controlled conditions or with carefully selected patients under the supervision of its developers does not always work as well in other settings or as implemented by other practitioners. In HTA, efficacy refers to the benefit of using a technology for a particular problem under ideal conditions, e.g., within the protocol of a carefully managed randomized controlled trial, involving patients meeting narrowly defined criteria, or conducted at a "center of excellence." Effectiveness refers to the benefit of using a technology for a particular problem under general or routine conditions, e.g., by a physician in a community hospital for a variety of types of patients.
Clinicians, patients, managers and policymakers are increasingly aware of the practical implications of differences in efficacy and effectiveness. Researchers delve into registers, databases (e.g., of third-party payment claims and administrative data) and other epidemiological and observational data to discern possible associations between the use of technologies and patient outcomes in general or routine practice settings. The validity of any findings regarding causal connections between interventions and patient outcomes may be weakened to the extent that these data are not derived from prospective, randomized, controlled studies (US Congress, OTA 1994). As discussed below, some newer prospective trials are designed to incorporate varied groups of patients and settings.
Box 4 shows certain distinctions in efficacy and effectiveness for diagnostic tests. Whereas the relationship between a preventive, therapeutic, or rehabilitative technology and patient outcomes is typically direct (though not always easy to measure), the relationship between a technology used for diagnosis or screening and its patient outcomes is typically indirect. Also, diagnostic and screening procedures can have their own short-term and long-term adverse health effects, e.g., biopsies and certain radiological procedures.
Health technologies can have a wide range of microeconomic and macroeconomic attributes or impacts. Microeconomic concerns include costs, prices, charges, and payment levels associated with individual technologies. Other concerns include comparisons of resource requirements and outcomes (or benefits) of technologies for particular applications, such as cost effectiveness, cost utility, and cost benefit. (Methods for determining these are described below.)
Examples of macroeconomic impacts of health technologies are the impact of new technologies on: national health care costs, resource allocation among different health programs or among health and other sectors, and shifts in the site of care, such as from inpatient to outpatient settings. Other macroeconomic issues that pertain to health technologies include the effects of intellectual property policies (e.g., for patent protection), regulation, third-party payment, and other policy changes on technological innovation, investment, competitiveness, technology transfer, and employment.
A variety of technologies raise social and ethical concerns. Such technologies as genetic testing, use of stem cells to grow new tissues, allocation of scarce organs for transplantation, and life-support systems for the critically ill challenge certain legal standards and societal norms. For example, the small and slowly increasing supply of donated kidneys, livers, hearts, and other organs for transplantation continues to fall behind the rapidly expanding need for them, raising ethical, social, and political concerns about allocation of scarce, life-saving resources (Miranda 1998; Yoshida 1998). In dialysis and transplantation for patients with end-stage renal disease, ethical concerns arise from patient selection criteria, termination of treatment, and managing non-compliant and other problem patients (Rettig 1991).
Ethical questions continue to prompt improvement in informed consent procedures for patients involved in clinical trials. Allocation of scarce resources to technologies that are expensive, inequitably used, or non-curative raises broad social concerns (Gibson 2002). Ethical considerations arise in HTA in the form of normative concepts (e.g., valuation of human life); applications of technology (prevention, screening, diagnosis, therapy, etc.); research and the advancement of knowledge; allocation of resources; and the integrity of HTA processes themselves (Heitman 1998). Methods for assessing ethical and social implications of health technology remain relatively underdeveloped, and the means of translating these implications into policy are often unclear (Van der Wilt 2000). Even so, greater efforts are being made to involve different perspectives in the HTA process in order to better account for identification of the types of effects or impacts that should be assessed, and for values assigned by these different perspectives to life, quality of life, privacy, choice of care, and other matters (Reuzel 2001).
The terms "appropriate" and "necessary" often are used to describe whether or not a technology should be used in particular circumstances. For example, the appropriateness of a diagnostic test may depend on its safety and effectiveness compared to alternative available interventions for particular patient indications, clinical settings, and resource constraints. A technology may be considered necessary if withholding it would be deleterious to the patient's health (Hilborne 1991; Kahan 1994; Singer 2001).
The properties, impacts, and other attributes assessed in HTA pertain across the wide range of types of technology. Thus, for example, just as drugs, devices, and surgical procedures can be assessed for safety, effectiveness, and cost effectiveness, so can hospital infection control programs, computer-based drug-utilization review systems, and rural telemedicine networks.
Measuring Health Outcomes
Health outcome variables are used to measure the safety, efficacy and effectiveness of health care technologies. Health outcomes have been measured primarily in terms of changes in mortality (death rate) or morbidity (disease rate). For a cancer treatment, the main outcome of interest may be five-year survival; for treatments of coronary artery disease, the main endpoints may be incidence of fatal and nonfatal acute myocardial infarction and recurrence of angina. Increasingly, health outcomes are being measured in the form of health-related quality of life and functional status.
In a clinical trial comparing alternative treatments, the effect on health outcomes of one treatment relative to another (e.g., a control treatment) can be expressed using various measures of treatment effect. These measures compare the probability of a given health outcome in the treatment group with the probability of the same outcome in a control group. Examples are absolute risk reduction, odds ratio, number needed to treat, and effect size. Box 5 shows how choice of treatment effect measures can give different impressions of study results.
Health-Related Quality of Life Measures
Although mortality and morbidity are usually the outcomes of greatest concern, they are not the only outcomes of importance to patients nor to others. Many technologies affect patients, family members, providers, employers, and other interested parties in ways that are not reflected in mortality or morbidity rates; this is particularly true for many chronic diseases.
Health-related quality of life (HRQL) measures (or indexes) are increasingly used along with more traditional outcome measures to assess health care technologies, providing a more complete picture of the ways in which health care affects patients. HRQL measures capture such dimensions as: physical function, social function, cognitive function, anxiety/distress, bodily pain, sleep/rest, energy/fatigue and general health perception. HRQL measures may be disease-specific (e.g., heart disease or arthritis) or general (covering overall health). They may be one-dimensional (concerning one aspect such as distress) or multidimensional (Patrick and Deyo 1989). They may provide a single aggregate score or yield a set of scores, each for a particular dimension. HRQL measures are increasingly used by health product companies to differentiate their products from those of competitors, which may have virtually indistinguishable effects on morbidity for particular diseases (e.g., hypertension and depression) but may have different profiles of side effects that affect patients' quality of life (Gregorian 2003).
A study of the effect of breast cancer screening can be used to contrast several treatment effect measures and to show how they can give different impressions about the effectiveness of an intervention (Forrow 1992). In 1988, Andersson (1988) reported the results of a large RCT that was conducted to determine the effect of mammographic screening on mortality from breast cancer. The trial involved more than 42,000 women who were over 45 years old. Half of the women were invited to have mammographic screening and were treated as needed. The other women (control group) were not invited for screening.
The report of this trial states that "Overall, women in the study group aged >55 had a 20% reduction in mortality from breast cancer." Although this statement is true, calculation of other types of treatment effect measures provides important additional information. The table below shows the number of women aged >55 and breast cancer deaths in the screened group and control group, respectively. Based on these figures, four treatment effect measures are calculated.
For example, absolute risk reduction is the difference in the rate of adverse events between the screened group and the control group. In this trial, the absolute risk reduction of 0.0007 means that the absolute effect of screening was to reduce the incidence of breast cancer mortality by 7 deaths per 10,000 women screened, or 0.07%.Women in the intervention group were invited to attend mammographic screening at intervals of 18-24 months. Five rounds of screening were completed. Breast cancer was treated according to stage at diagnosis. Mean follow-up was 8.8 years.
Absolute risk reduction: Pc - Ps
Relative risk reduction: (Pc - Ps) ÷ Pc
Odds ratio: [Ps ÷ (1 - Ps)] ÷ [Pc ÷ (1 - Pc)]
Number needed to screen: 1 ÷ (Pc - Ps)
Source of number of patients and deaths from breast cancer: Andersson 1988.
HRQL measures can be used to determine the effects of a technology on patients, to compare alternative technologies for their effects on patients with a particular problem or disability, or to compare different technologies' respective abilities to improve the quality of life of patients with different problems. Reflecting, in part, the need to demonstrate the effectiveness of many new technologies for chronic conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis, migraine, and depression, considerable advances have been made in the development and validation of these measures in the last 25 years. Box 6 shows dimensions of general HRQL measures that have been used extensively and that are well validated for certain applications. Box 7 shows aspects of selected disease-specific HRQL measures.
Quality-Adjusted Life Years
A unit of health care outcome that combines gains (or losses) in length of life with quality of life is the quality-adjusted life year (QALY). QALYs represent years of life subsequent to a health care intervention that are weighted or adjusted for the quality of life experienced by the patient during those years (Torrance and Feeny 1989). QALYs provide a common unit for multiple purposes, including: estimating the overall burden of disease; comparing the relative impact of specific diseases, conditions, and health care interventions; and making economic comparisons, such as of the cost-effectiveness (in particular the cost-utility) of different health care interventions. Health economists have proposed setting priorities among alternative health care interventions by selecting among these so as to maximize the additional health gain in terms of QALYs. This is intended to optimize allocation of scarce resources and thereby maximize social welfare. Other units that are analogous to QALYs include disability-adjusted life years (DALYs) and healthy-years equivalents (HYEs). As a group, these types of measures are sometimes known as health-adjusted life years (HALYs) (Gold 2002; Johannesson 1993; Mehrez and Gafni 1993; World Development Report 1993).
The scale of quality of life used for QALYs can be based on general HRQL indexes or other methods of eliciting patient utility for certain states of life. This dimension is typically standardized to a scale ranging from 0.0 (death) to 1.0 (perfect health). A scale may allow for ratings below 0.0 for states of disability and distress that some patients consider to be worse than death (Patrick 1994). QALYs can be useful for making comparisons among alternative technologies because they are generic units that can reflect changes brought about by different health care interventions for the same or different health problems. Box 8 shows how QALYs were used to compare the cost utilities of three alternative therapies for end-stage heart disease. Box 9 lists the cost utility of different interventions for different health problems according to the amount of money that must be invested per QALY gained. The CEA Registry is a continuously updated, detailed set of standardized cost-utility analyses, including tables of cost-utility ratios for many types of health care interventions [
Certain methodological aspects and the proposed use of QALYs or similar units in setting health care priorities remain controversial (Arnesen 2000; Gerard and Mooney 1993; Mason 1994; Nord 1994; Richardson 1994; Ubel 2000). Research on public perceptions of the value of health care programs indicates that health gain is not necessarily the only determinant of value, and that the rule of maximizing QALYs (or similar measures) per health expenditure to set priorities may be too restrictive, not reflecting public expectations regarding fairness or equity. For example, because people who are elderly or disabled may have a lower "ceiling" or potential for gain in QALYs or other measure of HRQL than other people would for the same health care expenditure, making resource allocation decisions based on cost-utility is viewed by some as inherently biased against the elderly and disabled.
Box 6 Domains of Selected General Health-Related Quality of Life Indexes
Class III: Patients with cardiac disease resulting in marked limitation of physical activity. They are comfortable at rest. Less than ordinary physical activity causes fatigue, palpitation, dyspnoea or anginal pain.
Class IV: Patients with cardiac disease resulting in inability to carry on any physical activity without discomfort. Symptoms of cardiac insufficiency or of anginal syndrome may be present even at rest. If any physical activity is undertaken, discomfort is increased.
Notes: Costs and outcomes discounted at three percent per year; 20-year horizon. Mean utilities derived using time-tradeoff method on scale for which 1.0 was well, 0.0 was death, and states worse than death were valued between 0.0 and -1.0.
This table indicates that, although the cost of conventional medical treatment is the lowest, its cost per QALY is the highest, as the life-years gained and the patient utility of those years are low compared to the alternatives. The costs of heart transplantation and total artificial heart are of similar magnitude, but the cost per QALY is much lower for heart transplantation, as the life-years gained and the patient utility of those years are higher compared to the total artificial heart.
Erythropoietin for dialysis anemia (with no increase in survival) 126,290 This table ranks selected procedures for a variety of health problems according to their cost utility, (i.e., the amount of money that must be spent on each procedure to gain one more QALY). There were some methodological differences in determining costs and QALYs among the studies from which these results were derived. Nonetheless, giving considerable latitude to these figures, the range in the magnitude of investment required to yield the next QALY for these treatments is great. This type of "bucks for the bang" (here, British pounds for the QALY) analysis helps to illustrate implicit choices made in allocating scarce health care resources, and suggests how decision makers might move toward reallocating those resources if societal gain in net health benefits (e.g., as measured using QALYs) is used as an allocation criterion.
Some work has been done recently to capture more dimensions of public preference and to better account for the value attributed to different health care interventions (Dolan 2001; Schwappach 2002). HRQL measures and QALYs continue to be used in HTA while substantial work continues in reviewing, refining and validating them.
Performance of Diagnostic Technologies
The relationships between most preventive, therapeutic, and rehabilitative technologies and health outcomes can be assessed as direct cause and effect relationships. The relationship between the use of diagnostic and screening technologies and health outcomes is typically indirect, as these technologies provide information that may be used to inform providers concerning the use of interventions that may in turn affect health outcomes.
Many tests and other technologies used for diagnosis are also used for screening, and most of the concepts discussed here for diagnostic technologies pertain as well to screening technologies. A basic difference between screening and diagnosis is that diagnosis is done in symptomatic patients and screening is typically done in asymptomatic patient groups. For a given test used for either screening or diagnosis, this difference has a great effect on the probability that a patient has a disease or other health condition.
The immediate purpose of a diagnostic test is to provide information about the presence (and, less often, the extent) of a disease or other health condition. That is, the diagnostic test should be able to discriminate between patients who have a particular disease and those who do not have the disease (or discriminate among different extents of disease in a given patient).
The technical performance of a diagnostic test depends on a number of factors. Among these are the precision and accuracy of the test, the observer variation in reading the test data, and the relationship between the disease of interest and the cutoff level of the marker or surrogate used in the diagnostic test to determine the presence or absence of that disease. These factors contribute to the ability of a diagnostic test to detect a disease when it is present and to not detect a disease when it is not present.
The marker for a disease or condition is typically defined as a certain cutoff level of a variable such as blood pressure (e.g., for hypertension), glucose level (e.g., for diabetes), or prostate specific antigen level (e.g., for prostate cancer). Disease markers have distributions in non-diseased as well as in diseased populations. For most diseases, these distributions overlap, so that a single cutoff level does not clearly separate non-diseased from diseased people. For instance, in the case of hypertension, a usual marker for the disease is diastolic blood pressure, the cutoff level of which is often set at 95mm Hg. In fact, some people whose diastolic blood pressure is above 95mm will not be hypertensive (false positive result), and some people with diastolic blood pressure below 95mm will be hypertensive (false negative result). Lowering the cutoff to 90mm will decrease the number of false positives, but increase the number of false negatives.
A diagnostic test can have four basic types of outcomes, as shown in Box 10. A true positive diagnostic test result is one that detects a marker when the disease is present. A true negative test result is one that does not detect the marker when the disease is absent. A false positive test result is one that detects a marker when the disease is absent. A false negative test result is one that does not detect a marker when the disease is present.
Operating characteristics of diagnostic tests and procedures are measures of the technical performance of these technologies. These characteristics are based on the probabilities of the four possible types of outcomes of a diagnostic test. The two most commonly used operating characteristics of diagnostic tests are sensitivity and specificity. Sensitivity measures the ability of a test to detect disease when it is present. Specificity measures the ability of a test to correctly exclude disease in a non-diseased person. One graphical way of depicting these operating characteristics for a given diagnostic test is with a receiver operating characteristic (ROC) curve, which plots the relationship between the true positive ratio (sensitivity) and false positive ratio (1 - specificity) as a function of the cutoff level of a disease (or condition) marker. ROC curves help to demonstrate how raising or lowering the cutoff point for defining a positive test result affects tradeoffs between correctly identifying people with a disease (true positives) and incorrectly labeling a person as positive who does not have the condition (false positives).
Taken alone, sensitivity and specificity do not reveal the probability that a given patient really has a disease if the test is positive, or the probability that a given patient does not have the disease if the test is negative. These probabilities are captured by two other operating characteristics. Predictive value positive is the proportion of those patients with a positive test result who actually have the disease. Predictive value negative is the proportion of patients with a negative test result who actually do not have the disease. (See Box 11.) Unlike sensitivity and specificity, predictive value positive and predictive value negative are not constant performance characteristics of a diagnostic test; they change with the prevalence of the disease in the population of interest. For example, if a disease is very rare in the population, even tests with high sensitivity and high specificity can have low predictive value positive, generating more false-positive than false negative results.
Beyond technical performance of diagnostic technologies, the effect of diagnostic technologies on health outcomes or health-related quality of life is less obvious than for other types of technologies. As health care decisionmakers increasingly demand to know how health care interventions affect health care outcomes, diagnostic technologies will have to demonstrate their efficacy/effectiveness accordingly.
The efficacy (or effectiveness) of a diagnostic technology can be determined along a chain of inquiry that leads from technical capacity of a technology to changes in patient health outcomes to cost effectiveness, as follows.
Diagnostic accuracy. Does the technology contribute to making an accurate diagnosis?
Diagnostic impact. Do the diagnostic results influence use of other diagnostic technologies, e.g., does it replace other diagnostic technologies?
Therapeutic impact. Do the diagnostic findings influence the selection and delivery of treatment?
Patient outcome. Does use of the diagnostic technology contribute to improved health of the patient?
Cost effectiveness. Does use of the diagnostic technology improve the cost effectiveness of health care compared to alternative interventions?
Box 11 Operating Characteristics of Diagnostic Tests
"This table shows the operating characteristics and their corresponding formulas and definitions.
Characteristic
Formula
Definition
Sensitivity
True Positives
Proportion of people with
True positives + False negatives
condition who test positive
Specificity
True Negatives
Proportion of people without
True negatives + False positives
condition who test negative
Predictive value
True Positives
Proportion of people with positive
positive
True positives + False positives
test who have condition
Predictive value
True Negatives
Proportion of people with negative
negative
True negatives + False negatives
test who do not have condition
If a diagnostic technology is not efficacious at any step along this chain, then it is not likely to be efficacious at any later step. Efficacy at a given step does not imply efficacy at a later step (Feeny 1986; Fineberg 1977; Institute of Medicine 1985). Box 12 shows a hierarchy of studies for assessing diagnostic imaging technologies that is consistent with the chain of inquiry noted above. Some groups have developed standards for reporting studies of the accuracy of diagnostic tests (Bossuyt 2003).
For diagnostic technologies that are still prototypes or in other early stages of development, there are limited data upon which to base answers to questions such as these. Even so, investigators and advocates of diagnostic technologies should be prepared to describe, at least qualitatively, the ways in which the technology might affect diagnostic accuracy, diagnostic impact, therapeutic impact, patient outcomes and cost effectiveness; how these effects might be measured; approximately what levels of performance would be needed to successfully implement the technology; and how further investigations should be conducted to make these determinations.
Yield of abnormal or normal diagnoses in a case series Diagnostic accuracy (% correct diagnoses in case series) Sensitivity and specificity in a defined clinical problem setting Measures of area under the ROC curve
Level 3. Diagnostic thinking efficacy
Number (%) of cases in a series in which image judged "helpful" to making the diagnosis Entropy change in differential diagnosis probability distribution Difference in clinicians' subjectively estimated diagnosis probabilities pre- to post-test information Empirical subjective log-likelihood ratio for test positive and negative in a case series
Level 4. Therapeutic efficacy
Number (%) of times image judged helpful in planning management of patient in a case series % of times medical procedure avoided due to image information Number (%) of times therapy planned before imaging changed after imaging information obtained (retrospectively inferred from clinical records) Number (%) of times clinicians' prospectively stated therapeutic choices changed after information obtained
The purposes, scope, methods, and other characteristics of HTAs that are conducted or sponsored by these organizations vary widely. Examples of these organizations are noted in this document. As in other fields, professional societies and organizational consortia exist in HTA. At the international level, HTA International (HTAi) [ has members from HTA agencies, academic institutions, health professions, hospitals and other health care providers, payers, industry, and others from more than 40 countries. The International Network of Agencies for Health Technology Assessment (INAHTA) [ is a network of about 40 organizations (including government agencies and non-profit private sector organizations) that generate a shared HTA report database and engage in related collaborative activities. Examples of other professional organizations whose interests include areas related to HTA include:
Expertise for Conducting HTA
Given the variety of impacts addressed and the range of methods that may be used in an assessment, multiple types of experts are needed in HTA. Depending upon the topic and scope of assessment, these may include a selection of the following:
Certain individuals have expertise in more than one area. The set of participants in an assessment depends upon its purpose, available resources and other factors. For example, the standing members of a hospital technology assessment committee might include: the chief executive officer, chief financial officer, physician chief of staff, director of nursing, director of planning, materials manager and director of biomedical engineering (Sadock 1997; Taylor 1994). Physician specialists and marketing, legal, patient affairs and additional analytical support staff could be involved as appropriate.
Ten Basic Steps of HTA
There is great variation in the scope, selection of methods and level of detail in the practice of HTA. Nevertheless, most HTA activity involves some form of the following basic steps.
Identify assessment topics
Specify the assessment problem
Determine locus of assessment
Retrieve evidence
Collect new primary data (as appropriate)
Appraise/interpret evidence
Integrate/synthesize evidence
Formulate findings and recommendations
Disseminate findings and recommendations
Monitor impact
Not all assessment programs conduct all of these steps, and they are not necessarily conducted in a linear manner. Many HTA programs rely largely on integrative methods of reviewing and synthesizing data from existing primary data studies (reported in journal articles or from epidemiological or administrative data sets), and do not collect primary data. Some assessment efforts involve multiple cycles of retrieving/collecting, interpreting, and integrating evidence before completing an assessment. For example, to gain regulatory approval (e.g., by the US FDA) to market a new drugs, pharmaceutical companies typically sponsor several iterations of new data collection: preclinical testing in the laboratory and in animals and phase I, II, and III studies in humans; additional phase IV post marketing studies may be a condition of approval. The steps of appraising and integrating evidence may be done iteratively, such as when a group of primarily data studies are appraised individually for quality, then are integrated into a body of evidence, which in turn is appraised for its overall quality. Depending upon the circumstances of an HTA, the dissemination of findings and recommendations and monitoring of impact may not be parts of the HTA itself, although they may be important responsibilities of the sponsoring program or parent organization.
Another framework for HTA is offered by the European Collaboration for Health Technology Assessment (Busse 2002), as follows.
Submission of an assessment request/identification of an assessment need
Prioritization
Commissioning
Conducting the assessment
Definition of policy question(s)
Elaboration of HTA protocol
Collecting background information/determination of the status of the technology
Definition of the research questions
Sources of data, appraisal of evidence, and synthesis of evidence for each of:
Safety
Efficacy/effectiveness
Psychological, social, ethical
Organizational, professional
Economic
Draft elaboration of discussion, conclusions, and recommendations
External review
Publishing of final HTA report and summary report
Dissemination
Use of HTA
Update of the HTA
As indicated by various chapter and section headings, all ten of the basic steps of HTA listed above are described in this document.
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