podcasts
Collection
Collection for podcasts • 511 items • Updated • 2
speaker stringclasses 3
values | text stringlengths 12 3.1k |
|---|---|
A | Bankless nation. We are going to learn about Celestia. Celestia's token just dropped and it's been up only ever since inception. Up over 200% since launch, Celestia is now a $7 billion network. Why? What about Celestia is so valuable? What is Celestia's vision for crypto? How, if successful, will Celestia change the cr... |
B | Thanks for having me. |
A | Joined by Mustafa, we got ismail. Koffi Ismail is a co founder and CTO of Celestia. Previously, Ismail was a senior engineer at Tendermint and the Interchain foundation. That's the cosmos ecosystem. Ismail, also welcome to bankless. |
C | Thanks for having me, guys. |
A | There has been a bunch of energy around the Celestia ecosystem as of recently due to the token launch, putting the celestia token on the map. So in this episode, I want to explore just the contours of what Celestia is, what its thesis is for the future of crypto, and what its role is for the crypto ecosystem. So lets j... |
B | Celestia is a modular data availability network that scales with a number of users on the network. And what that does is that it makes it very easy for anyone to launch their own blockchains and roll ups while having not to pay high data fees. |
A | Okay, so this is in the modular thesis of the crypto space. And there's been a ton of just like, arguing and debating on crypto Twitter as to, like, what the future of crypto looks like, especially when it comes to scale. So does Celestia have, like, an opinion about what the future of crypto looks like and how does it... |
B | Yeah. So Celestia was started in 2019 around the thesis that blockchains should not be responsible or layer one blockchains should not be responsible for computation and execution. Basically the original roll up centric Ethereum thesis, the idea that not every single application has to share the same chain, and not eve... |
A | Ismail, maybe you can take this and run with it. What does it mean for a blockchain to only be upped for consensus and data availability? When we talk about the modular thesis, what are we pulling apart here? |
C | Basically, we're pulling apart, Mustafa already mentioned it. We're pulling apart the execution from consensus and data availability. If a chain does only consensus and data availability, it means applications post their data, their blocks, their transactions on Celestia, and they get ordered. There's consensus on that... |
A | Mustafa, you brought up the lazy ledger paper. Can you explain the significance of that? And what does lazy ledger even mean? |
B | Yeah, so it's called lazy ledger because it's a blockchain that is lazy in the sense that it doesn't do any computation or execution. It's just a blockchain where you just dump arbitrary data into it. So it just kind of acts as a lazy, or like dumb data availability layer. And the kind of, and the kind of original idea... |
A | Ishmael, what were you going to add to that? |
C | Yeah, I just wanted to add that lazy is a very common term in CS in computer science or programming. It doesn't only mean that it's just lazy. And I think Mustafa used the word dumb in a sense it's actually optimized because it lazily does the execution only where it's needed. It's not this world computer model where e... |
A | So this thesis from Celestia about just being a modular blockchain and b being focused on rollups, aka like supporting more blockchains, is very harmonious and synergistic with the ethereum thesis. So Ismail, maybe you can explain a little bit about what would you say is Celestia's relationship to Ethereum? |
C | I think it's very like, it could be very symbiotic in the sense that Celestia could also be used as a building block for Ethereum, Williams or layer two s in the sense that people or developers who want to launch a layer two currently have the choice to post call data directly on Ethereum, which is very expensive. It's... |
A | What's the property that Celestia has that Ethereum doesn't have, that you're saying is unlocking, potentially unlocking new use cases or new applications? |
C | Oh, that data, data ordering and data availability is really cheap. Okay, that's the goal. |
A | Transaction. |
C | Yeah, exactly. |
B | Yeah. So like the initial block size, and it's not like it could be symbiotic. It is very symbiotic because the initial block size for celestia is something like 20 times higher than EIP 4844 as well. I think this will add a lot of value to Ethereum as well, because in order for, in order to have, even with API 444, in... |
A | Just to parse something out that you said, we have a bunch of layer twos that are tinkering and playing around with new virtual machines, forking the EVM, or sometimes even, just not even starting with EVM and just having a brand new virtual machine to power that blockchain. But you can tinker freely, tinker with a vir... |
B | Yeah, and also it's the fact that with the IPA 44, for example, you can only fit three data blobs per block. So a roll up can only buy like 100 data at a time. So with roll up, you can buy as little as 500 bytes. So with that kind of like the minimum unit of data you can buy, that inherently enables Ethereum to have a ... |
A | Right, so 4844, like three blobs per block? I think so, like three roll ups can post, like, their state route to Ethereum after 4844. But how does this compare to. And so 4844 is proto denk sharding. How does Celestia compare to full denk sharding? |
B | Yeah, so I mean, it's not yet clear how many data blobs full long shading will support or like what the full roadmap is there. But generally speaking, celestial already supports eight megabyte blobs, which I think is, as of today, is around half of the maximum throughput that danksharding plans to support in a few year... |
A | I know one thing about the economics of celestia is that the supply of bandwidth, if you will, the supply of data increases the more that people use it. This is a line that I've heard. Mustafa, could you explain how that works? |
B | Sure. So as I mentioned, with data availability sampling, you can have a system where you have light nodes, and what light nodes are is that if you go on metamask right now, how does your metamask interact with the Ethereum network? Right now it just uses a centralized RPC endpoint, like Infuria, for example. But one o... |
A | Sure. So, yeah, the idea is that the more people, the more people that are verifying smaller pieces of the whole entire celestial system, the larger the whole entire celestial system can be, while having assurances that the whole system is being checked by the collective set of light nodes out there. Is that how exactl... |
B | And this is kind of like a very differentiating, differentiating point between Ethereum and celestia and Solana, because people complain about Solana claims to do very high throughput, but it's got very high validator requirements. You need 256gb of ram to run a validator, and there's no way as an end user to easily or... |
A | Yes, yeah, I remember that, I remember that. We'll link that post in the show notes ismail, I think I'll turn this one back to you. In the Ethereum roll up landscape, we have all of these different roll up chain development kits or stacks. The op stack is a big one, of course, polygon when they're super nets and basica... |
C | So we're working internally on something called Rolekit, which is also a development kit. It's like a drop in replacement for tendermint or Comet BFT, it's called today. And that enables any ABCI compatible application, which is basically any cosmos flavor ish chain, to be deployed on top of Celestia. But it's not even... |
A | So when we talk about using a chain development kit like rollkit and to deploy roll ups on Celestia, that sounds exactly what a lot of the layer two s are doing on Ethereum. Is it really that simple of a comparison or are there differences that we should understand? |
C | I mean, RoleKit specifically is a bit different in the sense that it requires the application on top to adhere to a specific interface. But I think all these SDKs, the beauty of Celestia is you could potentially use all these execution environments in one flavor or the other on top of celestia as well. There's no limit... |
A | So where would Celestia get the assets? For example, deploying a layer two on Ethereum, you instantly tap into the market cap of ETh. You get to have USDC and Dai transfer in. You get any of the tokens. What's the same? Where does Celestia get some of the economic power from? |
C | So on Celestia directly, there's no direct, it's connected through IBC with the cosmos ecosystem. And I think ideally the community should decide on a bridge to Ethereum as well, directly. But from Celestia directly, there won't be many assets and outgoing because it just doesn't make sense because the applications are... |
B | Yeah. So I think a good way to put it would be that on Ethereum the roll ups scale the base layer, whereas on Celestia the base layer scale the roll ups. But that being said, obviously for rollups, bridging is still important and we do have a very early bridging ecosystem. So for example, there's IBC, as Ismael mention... |
A | So how does the native token of Celestia, the Tia, call it tia tia token, what's its role? How does it make the whole system work? |
C | So its main purpose is that, first of all, it's like a staking token. It secures the network the same way as ETH is used to secure the proof of stake network via staking. But the other big utility there is that it is used to pay for the data. If it's roll up or application specific. Roll up posts data on celestia, the ... |
A | Kind of like how when a roll up on Ethereum pays to post data on ethereum, it pays it in ether. Same thing in Celestia. Is there an economic model, unlike EIP 1559, where the Tia token is burnt, or what's the supply character characteristics? |
C | Currently there is no fee burning. Not an exact equivalent of that. So currently the fees are distributed to stakers. They don't end up with one proposal block producer, but they distribute it according to the weight of the stake. It's also delegated proof of stake. It's a bit different than an ethereum staking model, ... |
B | Yeah, I should mention we have a very similar protocol improvement proposal process like Ethereum. We have a version of ips called CIPS celestial improvement proposals. And I think the community plans to make some kind of fee burning proposals there. |
A | Certainly, yeah. Okay. And just to take an easy question off the table. The celestia is a blockchain. And so there are blocks with certain sizes, and there's certain levels of demand for that block space, and then that demand is purchased in the tia token, correct? |
C | Yes, exactly. |
A | Okay, cool. Um, is. Is the, like, economic model for Celestia somewhat similar to, like. Like, a lot of the Solana people will say that the Solana case for the economics behind Sol is that they make it up on volume. Uh, and. And so, like, with Celestia wants to have not just, like, a few roll ups, it wants to have many... |
B | Yeah. So I have a post on the forum called the core values of the celestial social layer. And one of those values is that we should try to achieve economic sustainability through economy of scale, instead of trying to achieve economic sustainability through artificial scarcity of resources, or trying, or, like, highly ... |
A | Something that was mentioned earlier that I want to make sure that we dive head first into is this thing called blobstream. Ismail, I think you brought it up. Could you just explain what blobstream is? |
C | So basically, it streams the data attestations onto Ethereum, such that Ethereum layer twos, so to say, can read the data attestations directly on Ethereum, instead of having to read the attestations from Celestia, additionally. So it's basically, it enables a more decentralized, a way to handle data for a layer two on... |
A | Is a way to understand this. It's basically a bridge, not for assets, but for data. It's a data bridge between Ethereum roll ups and Celestia. |
C | Exactly. So you can think of it as a one way bridge. You post the headers and these data attestations of celestial Ethereum. That's basically it. |
A | So as far as I know, only Ethereum and now Celestia are going after the roll up roadmap. I don't think there's any other chain out there. Maybe. I mean, Cosmos is similar to this, the app chain thesis, but really Celestia is the only thing like Ethereum in the sense that there's like one single settlement layer. Ethere... |
B | Yeah, I mean, I should also mention that there are some other kind of roll up centric project checks instead. So I think, like for example, Tezos is trying to have a roll up centric roadmap. And I think there's some early experimentation of roll ups on Cardano. I mean, I don't know how that's going, but like Celestial.... |
A | So what are some projects that people can find on Celestia? What are some of the earliest projects that have committed to the celestia ecosystem? What are they up to? What's just like, the landscape of Celestia projects look like? |
B | Yeah. So it's kind of like a wide ranging landscape. So you have various roll up frameworks that support Celestia. So, for example, you've got dimension. And dimension is a Cosmos bridge, cosmos roll up settlement layer that supports Celestia for data availability. So you can deploy a Cosmos roll up on dimension that u... |
A | Ismail, when you guys daydream about potential future use cases or potential future ideas that somebody could build, is there anything that comes to mind here? |
C | I mean, I dream of basically anyone today. If you deployed like an application, you just have an app store or whatever, you host it in some cloud provider. I think ideally we'd have something where you can deploy your roll up, your small roll up quickly in a browser, and run it with your community, run it with your fri... |
B | I personally think the killer use case for crypto is still payments. Kind of like going back to the roots of crypto. Bitcoin was a peer to peer cash system. But why hasn't that happened yet? I think for consumer applications like rollups, as I said, to me, the most important thing about roll ups is to create a better p... |
A | Well, guys, I've learned quite a lot going down this Celestia rabbit hole. There's a motto, a line apparently, that is in the Celestia ecosystem. I'll ask you guys to explain, as we close this one out, what does it mean to have 1gb blocks, a billion light nodes and a million roll ups? Can you just explain this vision, ... |
C | To achieve what Mustafa mentioned, for instance, vision, you have web two style applications and all this, you need a very large block space. We want to move away from the scarcity mentality and have abundant and very inexpensive block space. And to achieve that, we want to aim for massive blocks, but we don't want to.... |
A | Beautiful. Love it. When you guys are done with this podcast, it's Monday, so they've got a long, long, another long week of crypto ahead of us. Mustafa, what's the first thing that you're going to go back and get working on? What's the near term focus for the celestial team right now? |
B | So, yeah, I mean, in the short term, we're making various optimizations to the celestial software just to implement things like pruning. It's like very, these very short term optimizations that we have to do straight after mainnet, pretty much like nothing. Kind of like short term is very boring like this, kind of like... |
A | Then what about the long term? What's the big landmarks ahead for the celestial project? |
B | 1Gb blocks, 1 billion roll ups. |
A | Awesome, guys. Well, if listeners are curious and they want to learn more where should I send them? |
B | Yeah celestia.org dot there's lots of material on there and also material on how modular blockchains work as well on stellar.org dot awesome. |
A | We'll get all those links in the show notes. Mustafa Ismail, thank you so much for guiding us down this less year. Rabbit hole and good luck. Congratulations on getting this project out there and seeing the light of day. And I too am very much aligned with the whole idea of a million roll ups. So let's get it done. Tha... |
C | Thank you. Thanks a lot. |
A | Cheers guys. Bankless nation. You know the deal. Crypto is risky, defi is risky. New chains are always risky. You can lose what you put it in. But we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone. But we are glad you are with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot. |
README.md exists but content is empty.
- Downloads last month
- 6
Size of downloaded dataset files:
21.3 kB
Size of the auto-converted Parquet files:
21.3 kB
Number of rows:
67