podcasts
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Collection for podcasts • 511 items • Updated • 2
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A | Hey, bankless nation. Welcome to bankless takes. This is where David and I just talk about maybe links. We saw articles, we read stuff. Just whatever's top of mind. |
B | We read you tweets. |
A | Yeah, it's a free form episode today, David. I think maybe the theme is wisdom in general, maybe some investing wisdom, but also just life wisdom. That sounds a little deep for a bankless podcast, but, you know, we get deep on you. |
B | We've done deep before. |
A | Yeah, yeah. So there's a great Twitter thread that we'll get into investing wisdom from Chris Berninski. So we got to talk about that. What else we got? |
B | Vitalik wrote an article on his blog titled the end of my childhood, which the title's already deep. Vitalik turned 30 years old. Happy birthday. Belated birthday, Vitalik. And he wrote a reflective article that touched on many different things, not even one thing in particular. So we'll unpack that a little bit in our... |
A | I wanna hear your take on it. Cause you recently turned 30, didn't you? It's like 31 Vitalik. 31. Okay, 31 Vitalik. You got a year in Vitalik still. |
B | But like $150 billion network on me. |
A | Though, so he's done some things. Also, I want to talk about restaking, summer in particular. What's the price impact to ether? Ether the asset. So that's what's on slate for today. David, I think wisdom is a good place to start. I'm feeling reflective. So, crazy story. I know we're a little late to record this, but th... |
B | Street, and you sent me a picture. I got a message from Ryan. I've gotten messages like this from Ryan before, where I actually don't know how to gauge the severity of it. You sent me a message one time, and it was like something bad just happened. It's like, serious. And I'm like, and then you go off and deal with uns... |
A | Yeah, I did that. |
B | Then you come, then you come back. Was it serious? |
A | Do you remember what it was? |
B | Yeah. Well, you didn't tell me what the nature of it was. And I thought when you finally come back online, like 3 hours later, later, like, I was like, wife, kids, how are they doing? And you're like, oh, nothing like that. Like, I got a letter from the SEc about like, an old project that felt so bad, but holy hell, pl... |
A | It was crazy. And the reason I can laugh about this is he's totally fine. But this was like a carpool that, you know, stops by my house every morning. I actually. David, though, there was, like, ambulance and fire truck and all of this. It was just outside my house at the end of my street. I honestly, I thought it was ... |
B | Yeah. You remember? I know you know this. Wait, but why? From Tim. Urbanization. |
A | Yeah. |
B | He just, like, he says, like, hey, you have a limited amount of time left. How many books are you reading a year? Like, two books a year? Three books a year? How many years you got left? All right, you got, like, 40 years left. All right, you got 120 books you're going to read in the rest of your life, and then you're ... |
A | It's something like, people don't like it. |
B | When I bring this up, but, no, it's deep. |
A | I guess we're breaking. We're talking about it all this morning. |
B | This is not in the agenda. |
A | He does something. He also says something to the effect of, like, if you have kids, the time from zero to 18, you will have spent something like 97% of all of your time with your kids during those years. And so after they're 18, after they're out of the house, you only have, like, 3% left. |
B | Yeah, but that 3% is extra quality, though, because, like, a decent amount of the time in the 97%, you were, like, clean and poop out of their diapers. |
A | Right. |
B | You can trade that for, like, deep conversations that happened in the last, like, 3%. |
A | Absolutely. I know you've. You've spent some good quality time with your mom recently, too. |
B | Like Argentina, right? Yeah. |
A | None of this is in the agenda. |
B | Had never seen that corner of the world. And, like, none of her friends or whenever she's talking about, like, hey, let's go traveling with my friends. They're like, you're up. Never did she would ever imagine herself, like, walking on a glacier in, like, this, the very far south. |
A | That's cool, man. Like, you just having, like, a trip with your mom into adulthood, right? So there is quality time that. That can be spent. And, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's really cool. You get to do that. Anyway, the theme is investing. |
B | Now, your job, Ryan, is to transition this conversation into the Chris Berniski thread that we're about to pull up. |
A | Okay. Uh, Chris has some wisdom for us as well. I don't know if it's life advice or investing advice, but I, uh, I think it applies to both. This is the first tweet, and Chris is probably. Chris Berninski, uh, is probably one of the people I go to most often when it comes to, like, fundamentals, wisdom type of like. Li... |
B | I mean, there's a line that has been burned into my brain. Um, I can't remember where it came from, but, um, it's about, it's about copy trading, basically, where, like, there's some person publishing their trades and like, hey, here's what I'm doing. And this is a common practice for traders to do. It's like, you know... |
A | Will be generally after they've been successful. So it's like, after it's worked and you're kind of like looking at that and you're sort of buying the top of the, after it's worked, you weren't looking at them when they were contrarian, right. And it looked like they didn't know what they were talking about. |
B | Right. And so generally, Chris is just asking for people to reflect and consider, like, just critical thinking and independent thought, which is something that I think very, just massively is lacking, especially in crypto, probably all financial markets. I bet you this is a thing across all markets, but especially with... |
A | Well, I think he's also saying here is just like, back to that r word of, like, responsibility right. And so, I mean, you are accountable for your own investments that, like, you have to kind of own that, right? It's like you press the buy button. You know, you failed to press the sell button. And I think that's just a... |
B | Yeah. So, um, I came into crypto in 2017, which was my meme coin era. Like, people ping me with meme coins all the time. I'm like, that's just not about that life. This is when I was. You already did that trade. This is when I was, like, pressing the buy and sell button on the same assets inside of the same week on bin... |
A | I think that's the game. You think that's what everyone's doing. |
B | Yeah. And so everyone. Everyone dabbles with, like, the charter trader, like, character class, because that's just, like, that's the beginning, or that's a beginner character class. And then it wasn't until the bear market, when I was. Still had so many more questions that I was like, well, there are other ways to navi... |
A | I think that's also important when people are choosing their character classes to just, like, um, uh, follow those sources that will benefit their character class. Right? So Chris says this. Know your sources, their role in the industry, their credibility, ideally across multiple cycles, the asset styles and timeframes... |
B | Do you remember what Arthur Hayes, we asked this question, Arthur Hayes, what do you denominate in? Do you remember what he said? |
A | Didn't he say, like, he would do tins, like cans of oil if he could strap it to a belt? |
B | He said hydrocarbons. I denominate energy. |
A | Yeah. |
B | Which is a very interesting perspective. And 99.9% of the people that follow Arthur are not thinking like that. Most people just like, I denominate in dollars, bitcoin eth, Solana. |
A | Arthur knows his character class, so he knows what he denominates in. And by the way, he knows his strategy for increasing his denominations, increasing his hydrocarbons, which is he's trading and he's trading not on, like the week by week cycle, but if you, like, ask him or talk to him, it's like months. It's like thr... |
B | Following a hero in crypto is dangerous. And this is the same thing with copy traders. There's a bunch of traders out there who play the influencer game, and they very much enjoy when people follow their trades because that also makes their trades more lucrative. And if some people can make money, that's why they, like... |
A | A lot of bad idols last cycle, didn't we? 2021 idols. |
B | I think we always have bad idols. And I think this is what Chris was saying. I think higher up in the thread where he just says, um, just like, know your sources. Also with character classes and especially, especially for people who go through one cycle that he highlights, uh, people morph character classes, sadly, in ... |
A | Agreed. And people change. Right. And to your point, their styles change over time. Have you ever heard naval's framing of this, where he's like, early in your life you want to be a mercenary, and kind of later, once you've made it, you become a missionary, and then later in your life, once you've done that, you become... |
B | Well, he. Vitalik has lived a very sped up life. |
A | Yes, he has, man. Uh, anyway, we'll get to that in just a second, David, but first I want to talk to you about something less deep, but something that is on the near term horizon and that is restaking. And I know you're doing, as we. |
B | Turn to restaking, can we also place this in, like, about our strategy as content producer investors. Let's. Let's try and do that. I think, like, restaking and Eigen layer has resonated with you and me for a particular reason, and I think it's because it fits in our understanding of crypto networks, where crypto netwo... |
A | Yeah, there's two parts to this. Like, for me, anyway, I'd love to hear what you say about it. It's like one long standing thesis that out of crypto will emerge monetary instruments like stores of value, through which you can and probably should denominate your wealth in a bankless way. Right outside of the existing fi... |
B | And I think we've been on well accepted by now. |
A | Yeah, we've been on kind of, like, the writer side of that argument. It's not fully fledged, but, like, ether has become more money over the past three years, since we started the Bankless podcast and kind of, like, dove into the space. And so the interest for me in restaking is one. This establishes ether as a monetar... |
B | I think it aligns with the concept of smart contracts on Ethereum, which, let's go back to 2015, was a revolutionary concept. Smart contracts are no longer revolutionary concept, but that's because ether, like, popularized them. |
A | Do you mean, like programmable money? |
B | Programmable money, yeah. And so, like, we have crypto networks with native assets, and then we have smart contracts and turing complete, like, languages, like, solidity. Those two particles come together, and boom, we have programmable money and eigen layer. And restaking is a continuation of those two particles being... |
A | Yep. |
B | And so it's a return to, like, a very core principle of, like, why people? Why there was this original brain drain from bitcoin into ethereum in the first place, where it's, like, people just thought, oh, it's. It's bitcoin, but it's programmable. It's bitcoin with programmable money. Bitcoin. Bitcoin is digital gold. ... |
A | Yeah, exactly. And I know you're doing an episode about the shorter term or this new ecosystem that's springing up with restaking protocols. Right. You're doing a speed dating episode. Where are you interviewing? I don't know. Five or so of the teams and giving them 15 minutes. Give me your pitch type is that. |
B | The episode format might be six. So maybe just to really just place this into context, we have Ethi asset and the very center of a set of concentric circles. It is programmable money. Then we have liquid staked ETh. Right. The LST tokens, the staked Eth from Lido reth from rocket pool. That is the next concentric circl... |
A | Okay, so what I want to talk about is maybe the bigger picture vision here of why is restaking good for ether? And so, in what you just said, right, you said there's ETH and there's staked ETH, and there's restaked ETh. I think one analog. If you're looking at this through a monetary lens, like, let's say you take fiat... |
B | The main difference is that when you have a dollar and then you turn it into a treasury, you can't also turn it into a corporate bond. You have to turn it into a treasury in order to turn it into a corporate bond. So we have the yield of corporate bonds being stacked on top of the treasuries. One of the big bullish thi... |
A | It has to. It has to be higher because the cost of capital, or the zero risk form of capital is actually treasuries. So corporate bonds always sort of have to, because they imply greater risk of. |
B | Tesla could default, but it's assumed that the United States will never default because we have the money printer. They have the money printer, and so they'll just, oh, we don't have enough money. Oh, boom, we just made more money, right? Tesla can't do that. |
A | The US will never default nominally, right? It could default in terms of real returns. |
B | And that's not a default. |
A | Gotcha on a technicality. |
B | Okay. So there's always higher yields for the corporate bond market. This is actually different in the Ethereum context, where the yields being added on to Ethereum, ether re staking, are actually quite marginal. They're quite nominal, which is actually the point, which is why, like, cosmos validators who have to, like... |
A | We do that. We do that. Like, we tradfi does that, David, in that they'll group a whole bunch of bonds together, and they'll give them a rating, and you could buy a mutual fund of kind of like a class of bonds, basically. Well, they'll just smush a whole bunch of the corporate bonds into kind of like one unit that you ... |
B | Yeah, but that's actually not what I was referring to. So, like, with restaking, $1 of capital can be applied to, like, turn into $7 of security for seven different networks. But with, like, what you were just saying, like, $1 of capital is $1 of capital. It's just like, being aggregated across all of these bonds. And ... |
A | So the question I think that maybe people are listening to, who owns some ether? Is, is restaking going to be good for the price of ether, the fiat denominated price of ether? And I want to maybe give a take on that. And I'd love your thoughts on this, David. So one is, we're looking at a chart of the amount of eth tha... |
B | Not unit of value. |
A | Unit of account, yeah, unit of account. Now, your ether becomes like a asset that you can use not just to purchase gas, not just to watch it go up in fiat terms, but it becomes an asset that you can use to generate yield in other places, the market. Right. For me, as a holder of eth, it makes me even more attractive to... |
B | No matter the time, no matter the place, the depth of the market is extremely deep. |
A | Yeah. So you could sell hundreds of millions of dollars and a very liquid market would not move the price. That is one definition of money and I think it's probably the truest definition of money in an asset test. So this liquidity flywheel means there will be more places to buy and sell ether. It expands in terms of m... |
B | Down on that point. Not just is ether a productive asset natively inside of ethereum. Cool crypto bros, you guys figured out this a cool insular economy, but they will also see ETH being a productive outs productive asset that's expanding beyond its own internal ethereum network. So the asset itself is being productive... |
A | Yeah exactly. And that's sort of what I like about this is because right where these yields ultimately come from in restaking, well there has to be some valuable avss applications that are built on top of restaking eigen layer. But to the extent thats true, it becomes a crypto specific economy source of yield for ether... |
B | Yeah the Eigen layer equivalent for bitcoin is called Babylon. But whether or not there is actually product market fit is yet to be discovered. |
A | Right. And because bitcoin is not as expressive as ethereum, it's just much harder to kind of draw that out in a trustless way. And so. Yeah and then you look at alternative layer ones, right I. They're not being used in this way as a money. So it kind of establishes ether even. |
B | More high market cap. But it went down today and I'm sorry, you can't restake on a network that goes down. |
A | Right. So eth as programmable money is kind of a moat. So all that said, I think it's look, restaking this is why we're excited about it from a time horizon, long time horizon perspective, is because it really establishes, maybe cements the monetary value proposition of ether as an asset, as a bond for applications on ... |
B | So at the time of recording, there's 1.72 million ether deposited into Eigen layer. Almost 600,000 of that is natively restaked, which is just like raw vanilla ether going straight into Eigen layer. But inside of that natively restaked, it's also some LRT competitors. So we have liquid restaking, which is taking your r... |
A | Do you have a prediction? How big do you think this is going to grow if we're at 1.7 right now? You think we get to 5 million? Think we get to ten. |
B | And, like, one of my predictions for 2024. Right. Which one of them came right today? I think you can know which one it was. The second one I have is that $10 billion gets put inside of eigen layer in 2024. |
A | $10 billion. Now, ETH denominate that. |
B | Well, it depends on the ETH price, but we are at 2 billion, I think 1.7 billion. Let me actually do the actual real math on that with my calculator, because the bankless nation knows I'm terrible at math. 1.7 million times 2300, is that where we at? Which comes to $3.9 billion. Yeah, I made this prediction below $1 bil... |
A | Yes. |
B | So we're well on our way there. |
A | Well, actually, the problem with your prediction might be, like, you weigh under predicted here. I think we could get well past. |
B | Yeah, but I want to go for five for five this year. I've got one. The other one is $5 billion. Gets airdropped to users in 2024. That one's. |
A | Come on. That's going to happen. We're probably already, like, two or 3 billion in right now. |
B | Yeah, I can't remember what the other two were in. We'll pull that up later, when I get five for five this year. Anyways, okay, so $4 billion in eigen layer, 1.7 million ether. The early Ethereum predictions from the protocol devs, the Justin Drakes, Vitaliks, Tim Baker's, Danny Ryan's of the world were like, yeah, the... |
A | That's interesting. I actually, this is a whole nother episode. I don't know that it'll get that high, because I think, like, if we get into eth monetary economics, like, there's an asymptote where you get to a certain point in time and, like, the yield, at least from raw staking eth, ignore the LSTs, and the additiona... |
B | Well, we are doing an update to the Ethereum roadmap episode with Mike Norder and Dom on Friday, so I think we will just have that included in the episode. Yeah, the networking issue gets fixed with the EIP max effective balance, who mike nor one of the guests on the podcast is actually championing. Apparently it's not... |
A | There we go. David, you want to get to Vitalik's post, end of my childhood. |
B | But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. |
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