podcasts
Collection
Collection for podcasts • 511 items • Updated • 2
text stringlengths 16 2.82k |
|---|
Speaker A: Welcome to the debrief. After our episode with Justin Drake fixing fragmentation. What an episode, David. Yeah, I loved it. |
Speaker B: I personally love it. There's so many things to talk about. I think maybe I'll just start here for whatever the hell reason. But just like, I think many Ethereum people, you and I, whatever category I'm talking about, the you, me, Anthony, Susanna, the highly convicted Ethereum people, where there was like, ... |
Speaker A: They started fading, modular fading, the modular. |
Speaker B: Thesis, fading, ethereum, fading, the roll up centric roadmap, and they became like, solana people. Right? For whatever tribal. |
Speaker A: Tribal user experience. I don't think it has to be tribal. I think that the boots on the ground are that in many ways, Solana feels like one unified chain and in many ways, Ethereum's roll up ecosystem doesn't. It's like bridge, bridge this. |
Speaker B: Not to say that that's not reality, right? But just like, yeah, people are like, I sold my eth for Sol. Here's my Solana. Nft for all, for the perspective, for the perceived nature of these things, like that eth is dead. Solana's the new king. Yeah, sure, yeah. And then there's a lot of people like you, me, ... |
Speaker A: May I also say it's also not blind faith. I mean, there are hints of many solutions already. Like, you know, intents is kind of one category of solution. I am aware and have been aware of shared sequencers and their role have not gone in depth. Um, but, like, that's an emerging field and like just in general... |
Speaker B: Like, well, I wouldn't even say that. That as a prerequisite for universal shared composability, like a single shared sequencer like Espresso, without using the Ethereum layer one, still could produce that outcome. Justin was just like, oh yeah, all these shared sequencers are realizing that it's the base ch... |
Speaker A: I don't think I fully understood what a based roll up actually was like before, I don't know, the last month or so. |
Speaker B: It's a roll up that is following the protocol sync thesis. |
Speaker A: Yeah. And then I think basically all rollups can become based roll ups if they use a shared sequencer that uses Ethereum validators for shared sequencing as well. |
Speaker B: On that note of having hints of solutions kind of spread around the Ethereum verse, that's also what I felt like we're in a phase in the market in which everyone listening to that episode has been in crypto for at least one year, if not three plus. And so they probably heard the phrase shared sequencing befo... |
Speaker A: Solve this fragmentation problem kind of thing. |
Speaker B: Like with market forces. The fragmentation of layer twos will, will die a thousand cuts. Yeah, like there's not going to be a silver bullet. It's just, we're just eventually going to figure it out. And I kind of did come to the conclusion of just like, yo, it's still going to be asynchronous, but if you get ... |
Speaker A: Yeah, I think that makes sense. One interesting thing was him calling asynchronous composability cope. Cope. He thought that was like that. And it is. If you can have synchronous composability, that is, everything can kind of immediately interact with everything else in the same sort of super state, then isn... |
Speaker B: The thing is, I don't think it's binary. I don't think it's going to be like, oh, here's the day. It's just ethereum's just going to become a little bit more synchronous day by day by day. Maybe there are some big events that happened. Oh, arbitrum mainnet and optimism mainnet. They're on the same sequence. ... |
Speaker A: Yeah. |
Speaker B: And so maybe there'll be days like that. Right now we're watching. I think this will happen a bunch. Right now we're watching op stack roll ups. Some of the newer op stack roll ups pivot to Celestia for data availability. Lyra was the first to go. Avo is being announced sometime soon. Um, and then we're like... |
Speaker A: Yeah. |
Speaker B: So they're pivoting to Celestia to get 0.5 ETH per block per month is their costs. Makes sense. That's just what we're going to see. And it's going to be something like that where, like, we're going to see and it's going to be more, there's going to be an accelerating number of these things as they all do th... |
Speaker A: I think one of my favorite things about this is it's a realization of the dream of the United chains of Ethereum. Because I'll tell you where I also felt this. You could talk about Ux, you could talk about liquidity fragmentation, you talk about having to change from network to network in your wallet. I feel... |
Speaker B: Now we have like, chain Legos. So, like, we had money Legos on the Ethereum layer one, where maker and Uniswap and Aave and like, you know, Zero X and like, I don't know any, you know, pick your, pick your layer one app, they were all money Legos. And there was, I remember that old article I wrote. I called ... |
Speaker A: There are a few things I want to ask you that I didn't fully understand with Drake. We just didn't have time to get caught on very small details because we're trying to express the full idea. I think we could have gone on for another hour, but this conversation about pre confirmations, you kept bringing that... |
Speaker B: Well, that's kind of like a UX trick, but it's actually more than a trick. A UX trick I'll define as like the front end just tells you your transaction went through even though they don't actually know that it went through instantaneously. |
Speaker A: You could tell a user, hey, transactions through. But like in the background it's really. |
Speaker B: Yeah, you're Gucci. Yeah. In the background it's still processing. Right. And so that's like a UX trick. A pre conf is like a UX trick with assurances. So like it's not in the system, but you have an assurance that it's going to get in. And this can be used in a variety of different contexts. I think heart f... |
Speaker A: Okay. And then there was this other thing he was talking about, shared sequencing, which we like. It defined that, but also real time settlement. And then later in the conversation, we didn't spend a lot of time on real time settlement, but later in the conversation, he talked about a block that could form l... |
Speaker B: No. I'll have to go back and listen to that part. I think part of that answer just gets because like, optimistic roll ups in ZK rolls are such a different language. Like ZK roll ups inside of the same circuit. Right? Like, so ZK sync hyper chains are one circuit, polygon supernets are one circuit. They all g... |
Speaker A: There's so much that this would change, I think, about Ethereum ecosystem and its actors as this comes about. And again, it's not going to happen overnight. It's not a switch that's going to flip. It's not even a hard fork. It's like market forces and other incentives will kind of push this along as it needs... |
Speaker B: Well, no, it depends on the type of bridge. So let's parse that part apart. Right? So there are lock and mint bridges, which I totally think you're right. Those are like, those are going away. Um, but across bridges are like an intent based bridges. So across isn't even a bridge. It's like an intent system o... |
Speaker A: Different chains, market makers, all these, the swarms of mev bots, kind of like in between. |
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Across was an intent filler before we had the word intent. Um, this is why I actually really. |
Speaker A: Respect, I kind of don't class that as a bridge, but like, I suppose it's like a sub bridge, but yeah. |
Speaker B: When I was a bridge, from the. |
Speaker A: Perception I was more talking about bridges, I was more talking about the typical mint type of bridge and all of kind of the walk and mint bridge. |
Speaker B: Lock and mint bridges are boo boo. Those are fundamentally boo boo. Those are going away. |
Speaker A: Yeah, but even the super bridges that are out there, what's a super bridge? Well, the bridges that basically become kind of development platforms. Trying to think of an example off the top of my head, wherever I like. |
Speaker B: Layer zero. |
Speaker A: Yeah, like a layer zero. What happens to a layer zero in this world? |
Speaker B: Messaging bridge. Layer zero, I think, has always been. |
Speaker A: Meant for more messaging and less. So basically the asset bridges are going to have, like the pure asset transfer bridges are going to maybe have a hard time, but the message passing intense based bridges maybe not. |
Speaker B: Lock and Min bridges going away. Yeah. Generalized messaging, like layer zero is a generalized messaging bridge. But even I don't know if it's highly optimized for being an intent person. |
Speaker A: How does it change? Also market dynamics, when you have asynchronous composability, you don't have to have, sorry, synchronous composability. And you don't have to approach every single chain and say from a biz dev perspective and be like, hey, do you want this? We've got this new, and there's an agreement. ... |
Speaker B: I would say, yeah, I definitely think that's right. I think there's a general shift towards a demonopolizing of the layer two space. And so, like, the chain link, for example, like has a monopoly on Oracles and Defi Oracles, like you need, if you're going to be a layer two train, a Defi layer two train, you ... |
Speaker A: Well, I got something else thinking about it. While you're thinking about that, what's your take on incentives for chains to adopt shared sequencing now? So we talked about that with Drake. That's, some people have said that's a reason why chains won't. And it's basically the reasons we talked about is they ... |
Speaker B: Yeah, I could spit out a bunch of those gut takes, but they would be pretty unfounded. The vibe that he was giving was that, especially with that one innovation that he named from Espresso, which is just like, yo, Espresso is going to be able to segment rewards and so arbitrage is going to retain its share o... |
Speaker A: I think I really appreciated his almost in the same breath where he was talking about a cope asynchronous composability as kind of cope. He was also just, I think a little earlier, talking about just thank you to other chain ecosystems, particularly he named Solana for pushing Ethereum in this direction. Rig... |
Speaker B: Really accounted for it in the first place. |
Speaker A: Right. Well, do you remember, yeah, just didnt do any innovation on its EVM and didn't really. |
Speaker B: EVM has never been touted as like a highly advanced piece of software. |
Speaker A: No. And do you remember there were at one time like 2018 or so 19, there was EF initiatives to do like e wasm, and like, this wasn't parallelized EVM, but this was the EF doing. |
Speaker B: Something, advancing the EVM. |
Speaker A: Right. So that, and like, we talked about that almost at length on bankless, I feel like recently, and Ethereum kind of was pushed into that by a competitor, but then also solving fragmentation and not settling for asynchronous composability, but going full synchronous composability. And Solana has pushed th... |
Speaker B: So one thing I think that I think is happening is my gut take, my intuition is that when every single layer two chain joins together in the unified synchronous composability, like layer two mesh network that is being built on top of Ethereum. Yeah. The EVM is single threaded. Sure. And so every single layer ... |
Speaker A: But what you can do is get like quadratic threading, like where you have. |
Speaker B: The, where have, you can have multi threaded layer twos. |
Speaker A: The single thread that you're talking about then is a multi thread, single thread chain. Do you know what I mean? |
Speaker B: Right. For sure. But it's just like anything that's a modular blockchain is like, oh, we're multi threaded, and you don't need layer twos because we have multithreadings. Well, yeah, but like, go zoom out one more order of magnitude. We'll zoom out, go out one more dimension. And, yeah, you have, like, you h... |
Speaker A: A service bus or something. |
Speaker B: Yeah, bus. Yeah. Serial bus. |
Speaker A: Yeah, serial bus, yeah. |
Speaker B: Isn't there something like this? |
Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know what it does. |
Speaker B: You see the metaphor I'm trying to make, make happen, right? |
Speaker A: Yeah, I definitely see that. I mean, this goes back to kind of like, I think Mike from blockworks, who's talked about all of these chains sort of are starting to collapse on the same design. I think there's elements of that that are right. But I kind of wonder if you're a monolithic chain, I guess more my id... |
Speaker B: I think we will see the writing on the wall for that to happen when we see ghost chain layer twos join into a shared sequencer set and the ghost chain layer two actually starts to get more activity just because it's proximate to the activity. One of the reasons why, like building in crypto, building in Ether... |
Speaker A: But I mean, stuff like that you're saying is you have to be a ghost chain, right? You have to be kind of desperate in order to do that, right? If you're doing well on your own, you're not a ghost chain. You have users and your token price is going up. You're probably not going to, I mean. |
Speaker B: A ghost chain by comparatively to the peloton, right? By. Yeah, I. Yeah. |
Speaker A: Anything else from that episode stick out for you? |
Speaker B: No, I'll tell you after. Go back and relisten to it. |
Speaker A: Yeah, same here. It's one I'm going to have to relisten to. All right, guys, thank you for being citizens. This has been the debrief. |
README.md exists but content is empty.
- Downloads last month
- 4
Size of downloaded dataset files:
18.5 kB
Size of the auto-converted Parquet files:
18.5 kB
Number of rows:
71