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Joe Franklin? I'm ready. It's Ira Glass here. Oh, you're the emcee on the show, Ira. I am the emcee on the show. Yes. Oh great. Ira? I-R-A, Ira? Ira, I-R-A. Oh, great. Now hold on one second, Ira. Don't go away. Hello? [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. Call me after 3 o'clock. I have great news for you. Ira. Yes. So listen, Tony. If t... |
us from Adam. OK, we're what? About a minute. We're one minute five into the new show. Right now, it is stretching in front of us, a perfect future yet to be fulfilled. An uncharted little world. A little baby coming into the world, no little scars on it or anything. Nobody hearing my words right now is thinking, "Oh, ... |
force is so strong, it is so basic to who we are as people that I know-- OK, what are we? We are two minutes into the program-- I know that somewhere out there, one or two of you are saying, "Oh, sure. I used to listen to that show back in the first 30 seconds, back when it used to be really good. Remember back when th... |
and documentary producers, like myself, some just regular people telling their own little stories, some by artists, and writers, and performers of all different kinds. And the idea is we're going to bring you stuff you're not going to find anywhere else. And there is also going to be music. And tonight's show, we thoug... |
get some advice on how to create a long-running, healthy program. I've been called in many times to give a sort of a Dean, the elder statesman, even though I'm still a young kid. But I've been called in to give this kind of advice to new kids on the block. Conan O'Brien had me on his first show. And people like that. T... |
tower. And above all, get the plug fast. Otherwise, he's worried you're not going to make the plug for the book. And I created a line, Ira, that's been picked up by George Burns. I always said, the main ingredient for longevity in the talk show field, where the mortality rate is so staggering, the main ingredient is si... |
don't look in their nose or their belly button. Look right in the eye. Eye contact is everything. And as I say, it's a lot of fun. And I never called anybody in my life to come on to my show. And I'm sure that they'll be coming to you too. I heard about you, and I called you and wanted to wish you good look, Ira. Imagi... |
that one up, because I didn't let you get in your plug early. See, that is my fault. I got it in toward the bitter end. It's like Duke Ellington. He always used to have his dessert at the beginning of the meal. Duke Ellington said, because he would never have no room for it at the end. So he had his dessert at the begi... |
second. Look right in the eye. Eye contact is everything. I am making eye contact with you right now. That is just how much I have already learned. OK, so the thing about new beginnings is that there are the ones that we actually undertake and then there are the ones that we just wish for. And the ones that we wish for... |
person who had always dreamt about a new beginning, where he wouldn't struggle with these questions. I would get twisted and caught up. And these things were in the background, consuming me. And actually, I found that I could think about little else for many, many months, that behind all that I was doing, there was alw... |
scope here, just modest scope. But what we want to talk about is what happened to Kevin Kelly. What happened is that at the age of 27, all of this changed when he came into Jerusalem on the eve of Easter and Passover. It was the same weekend. And flocks of people are coming into the city. So I entered Jerusalem on East... |
money to stay elsewhere, nor did I even have knowledge of where to go. So I wandered the Old Town of Jerusalem at night, which had been shuttered up and was like a time machine. It was as if I had been transported back to the 15th century, because all the souvenir vendors were gone, and what was left were the labyrinth... |
church built over the mound where Jesus Christ was crucified. And I was getting very tired. And there weren't many people around. And so eventually, I laid myself out on about the only flat area that was left, which was this marble slab underneath some pendants that had incense on them. And this was presumably the slab... |
area in Jerusalem. And I went out. And there were some folding chairs set up in front of this tomb area. And as the sun was coming up on that Easter morning, I was staring at empty tombs. And for a reason that I can not comprehend, as I sat on that chair contemplating this view of the early sun morning coming into the ... |
as if you had been working on a problem for a long time and suddenly the answer was there. And it was very clear that was the answer. And although there were many things that were still not clear to you, you were very certain that you were on the right path. Having that realization that I believe that Jesus Christ had ... |
ashes, and march out into the desert? All that was left unopened. And that is, in fact, what occupied my mind as I went back to my hostel to lay down and think about. Because I had no clue what it really meant to me ultimately, and that's what I was pondering when I was laying there napping. And I wouldn't say it was a... |
to die. And so that was the assignment. I'm a pretty rational person. I'm pretty logical. And after thinking the thought that I should live as if I was going to die in six months, the first thought that comes to my head was, "Well, that's pretty silly. I have no evidence whatsoever. I could live like I'm going to die i... |
think that I was going to die in six months, and that, in either case, the important thing was to live as if I really believed that I was going to die in six months, which is what I set out to do. The next couple days, I had the joyous experience of saying to myself, "OK, what do I do for six months if I have only six ... |
and trim the hedges, and move furniture around, and to be with them. And I was really shocked by that, because I thought that with six months to live, I would climb Mount Everest, or I would go scuba diving to the depths of the ocean, or get in a speedboat and see how fast I could go. But instead, I wanted to go back h... |
were unbelievably ordinary. And yet, I found myself relishing the ordinariness and finding it in some ways as exotic as anything that I had traveled to see. I helped around the house. I dug up shrubs. I worked on a deck. I moved furniture, washed dishes. And I was intending to spend my last remaining six months at home... |
died. And I got the idea that the way to see them was to ride my bicycle across the country and visit them on bicycle. But before I did that, I made up a will to dispose of the little things that I had. And I had some money left over. And one of the things I did with that money was I went to the bank and got some cashi... |
people had no idea who had sent them that money. It was really remarkable to see the consequences of getting an anonymous gift like that. Because when you get a check for $1,000 in the mail, you immediately become suspicious of all your friends of having given that to you. And so there's this suspicion of charity, susp... |
this be the person?" And then you act really nice to them. I almost want to begin a little speech here about let us all now take up this practice. All of us. Everyone within the sound of my voice. If we all could just do this right now, then I would believe that our little radio show, just 19 minutes into the program, ... |
back up through Indiana. So it was a 5,000 mile trip. The day which, coincidentally, was exactly six months from when I had this assignment, was October 31. It was Halloween. And so the plan would be that I would ride back home, so that I would come back to die on the day after Halloween. I think there are a lot of peo... |
woman he wanted to marry some day, or some vision of a house. The future that I found so hard to give up was a much more insidious type. It was that of I'd like to buy this record because, in the future, I want to hear this song again and again. Or I will read this book, and there are some cool ideas in it because some... |
used again or that it could ever be brought forward, was extremely difficult and disconcerting. And I fought it day by day and tooth by tooth. One of the ways I dealt with this was that I was actually able, by the last weeks, to not think about my life beyond Halloween. There was a way which I had just-- each time a th... |
of what being human is about. And that when you take away the future for humans, you take away a lot of their humanness. And that it's not actually a very good thing to live entirely in the present. That one needs to have a past, and one needs to have a future to be fully human. It was a journey that began at the tomb ... |
again, that very harsh information of knowing when you're going to die. And Jesus's soul was in great turmoil and pain because of knowing that. And I think I did experience some of that, not because I had the same weight. It was just my own life. But Jesus prayed that this burden be lifted, and there were days when I d... |
that I was familiar with and that felt like home. And I was riding into New Jersey, and I was elated. I was elated that I had accomplished this long journey. And I was elated that I was home to see my parents. And I came in to their house on Halloween day. And I was so filled with ideas, and things, and emotions, that ... |
had a discussion that night which was about nothing in particular. It was not about the future. It was just about, I think, talking about our family and my brothers and sisters. And I was telling them all that I had learned about them. And so it was a very together and, again, not a very dramatic evening, but just a pl... |
in my own mind, in my own soul, all the things that I might have regretted. And I had righted as many of those as I thought I could through letters. And I was prepared, as much as anybody could be prepared to die. And so I went to bed while the kids were still ringing doorbells. And I went to sleep, because I was very ... |
life again. The next morning, I woke up, and I had my entire life again. I had my future again. There was nothing special about the day. It was another ordinary day. I was reborn into ordinariness. But what more could one ask for? Well, Kevin Kelly is 43 now. That happened when he was 27. In his latest rebirth, he is t... |
Associates. Hey, is Barry there? Pardon me? Is Barry there? Yes, he is. He's on another call. Do you wish to hold, or I could take a message, or you can leave one on his voicemail? It's his son. Uh-huh. Isn't this starting to sound like-- this little dialogue-- isn't it starting to sound like an episode of Dr. Katz? Yo... |
OK, hold on, please. This is the story of my childhood right there. Dad is a little too busy to talk. But there's the recording of Frank Sinatra when needed. Hello? Hey, Mom. Oh, hi, Ira. How you doing? Fine. Can you hold on a second? Sure. This is what it's like with my parents. They're so busy. Call them. Put on hold... |
show goes on the air this week. And as part of the show, we were thinking about having me call around to different people and get advice from them. And I wanted to know if you would have any advice. Hm. Do I have any advice? Well, can I ask another question? Sure. Who is your target audience? You are such a pro. I'm sa... |
I possibly could. But now that I've got my own show, are you guys still worried? Or do you feel like things are going OK? Do you want me to get into television still? Now that Hugh Grant is such a big star, and everybody who sees you or sees your picture thinks how much you look like Hugh Grant, that fires up that TV t... |
want this wonderful humanistic, intelligent reporter who looks like Hugh Grant? All right. Yeah, let's move on. What's the theme for this week? The theme for this week is new beginnings. And we have several stories, people telling about various ways in which their life began anew at some point. That's very interesting,... |
the things I believe is that there are a lot of people who are good at beginnings, but they're not good at middles. Which means what? It means that they like the beginning, where there's all this idealization and romantic projections. And the other person can be who they think they should be, rather than who they are. ... |
eye contact right now. Remember what Joe Franklin said about the eye contact. No idealizing. --where there's more of a reality-based relationship, they run away from it because it's not as exciting. It's interesting that you say that because, actually, as we've approached the first show, I've realized that I am much mo... |
That's good. That's good because practically all of life is the middle. We have gotten so deep here. I never expected that it was going to get so deep. I'm just very pleased at how deep this has gotten. Now you're sitting there, you're thinking, "Is he making fun of me? What's happening now? Where are you?" No, I'm not... |
next on our little playhouse stage, we have Mr. Lawrence Steger. Now those of you who have been listening carefully to our program and taking notes, and I know there are many of you out there, you know what I'm supposed to do at this point. You know because you were listening carefully to Joe Franklin at the very begin... |
of the last half-hour, Kevin Kelly's story, this guy who believes he only has six months to live, goes on this cross-country road trip. And as it turned out, when Lawrence Steger found out, the day that he found out that he was HIV positive, this was five years ago, on that day, it was the exact day that he and a frien... |
of the images, the silhouettes, repeated over and over, ad nauseam, and fading into each other. Can I get this microphone adjusted a little, so I don't have to lean over so much? Yeah, sure. Just pull that. Check one, two, three. Sound better? Yeah. Sorry. Thanks. Synopsis. The story concerns Luke, gay, white, Midweste... |
his college buddy, Bill, and both are packed for a road trip across the country to San Francisco. This isn't the right section of Blade Runner. Can you just kill the Blade Runner? Locations. Car interior. Gas station exterior. HIV clinic parking lot. HIV clinic interior. Highway. Music. Strauss's four last songs, parti... |
really no music on the soundtrack. It's stark, crisp. Maybe some songs coming from the radio at the clinic's desk? Great. And definitely from the car radio mixed with surfing on an AM radio. No music. The drama is constantly being undermined through the cool, collective quality of Luke's demeanor. He seems detached, qu... |
floats, hovers over the back of Luke's head. "The ceiling of the car must be incredibly high," he thinks to himself. Bill pulls into the closest parking spot in the clinic, blows out the last of the one-hit, and, as he's knocking the brass pipe into the ashtray, turns to Luke with that slightly watery look in his eyes ... |
"I hate thinking I'm in a novel," he thinks to himself. Cut to interior of the clinic, the reception area. Can we change this sound bed here? Great. Take it down just a-- Great. In the scene that we talked about on the phone, the clinic waiting room scene, that scene flips back and forth between various security black-... |
fingernails keep on growing even after a person dies, but he pushes that thought away with this fingers to his forehead, wonders why he is thinking about that. It's that novel thing again. Stephanie, the drag queen nurse, walks Luke back to the small cubicles that the tests are administered in and then used to relay th... |
himself in a George Tooker painting that was reproduced in his sixth grade reader. He wonders what his sixth grade teacher would think of Stephanie. He wonders if his sixth grade teacher was ever tested. He imagines her body in the pileup of bodies who have come to the clinic. Stephanie has been saying something, and L... |
Cut to Bill in waiting room, flipping through People's The Year in Pictures. Cut back to close-up of Luke, forehead wrinkled. He thinks his narrator wants him to get out of the cubicle. He waits for Stephanie to finish her spiel, thanks her, and shakes her hand, getting a slight scrape from one of the fingernails. Clos... |
ending on the highway entrance ramp. Cut to interior of car pulling out of parking lot. Luke keeps looking straight ahead, as he murmurs, "I'm positive." Long, slow pan from the back of Luke's head to the back of Bill's. There's no reaction in either of their faces or, better, the profiles of their faces. This is the l... |
a car radio. "Trying not to think of the future. Just live in the present moment." Something like that. You got that? It comes onto the radio. I also decided that it was an entirely unnatural and inhumane way to live, and that having a future is part of what being human is about, and that when you take away the future ... |
passenger window and, every once in a while, turns to glance at Bill. Long pause. There's dead air. Cut to Luke's point of view. Car is pulling onto entrance ramp of highway. Luke sees hitchhiker with a sign that he stands for any remote meaning to the narrative. Luke sees himself outside of his own story. He can't rea... |
That's right. Advice from the master. OK. Let's review our program so far. Let's just review. Let's just get things straight right now. Our stories so far have been about people whose futures were taken from them and were thrown into the present in one way or another. I guess when any big emotional moment happens, you ... |
like the oxygen was even different. You know what I mean? The air seemed to be thinner. I'll tell you what's been a real kick for me, getting up, cooking breakfast. Making pancakes, and eggs, and bacon, and stuff like that. It sounds drab maybe to the common-- everybody would think of that as, "That's really drab." But... |
and other evidence came forward. He was made a free man. Back when he was in Graterford Prison, he played trumpet, and he sang with a jazz band. And that whole time, he dreamed of this new life, a new life that he would have outside as a professional musician. And that's what he's working on. That's what he's working o... |
musicians. After all, musicians, they don't make no money, so I guess the first place you find them at is in prison. But you have a lot of guys who are musicians. And even though they might not be actively playing anymore, they'll be quick to criticize you, whether the chord is not right, or whether you didn't flatten ... |
against the grain. And here, in the world, people are a little different. They don't concern themselves so much with that, as much as how are you entertaining us? How are you helping us to feel better about ourselves? How are you making us feel better? At Graterford, there is nothing you can do to make them feel better... |
find something. Now you know how we heard people earlier in the program talk about the importance of living in the present. But when we interviewed Ed Ryder, he pointed out that, in prison, the most important thing is to keep your eye on the future, on the day that you're going to get out. And that the guys who just li... |
nothing else to look forward to but tomorrow. You're constantly hoping and hoping. You're trying to plan something for the future. We asked him if he is still playing the same music now that his future is here and he's out. And we thought that maybe the songs that he used to play would just bring back these hard memori... |
Graterford-- and it has the same meaning now, but it's different. In the sense that, when I was at Graterford, when she said, "Them that's got shall get, Them that's not shall lose. So the Bible says, and it still is news. Mama may have, Papa may have, But God bless the child that has his own." Well, in my mind, at Gra... |
to. And I felt like every time I would listen to that, I felt as though she was talking directly to me. And for me, that meant that I was on my own in this prison situation. And I was going to have to make it the best way that I could. And I was going to have to muster all the energy that I could possibly muster. Now w... |
that I have to take care of. I have bills that I have to pay. I have job responsibility. I have a lot of other things that I have to do, and I have to do these things on my own now. I don't have no prison guards waking me up in the morning, telling me, "Hey, it's time to get up," or "It's time to go eat, " or "It's tim... |
God bless the child that's got his own, that's got his own. You know the strong get more, while the weak ones fade. Empty pockets don't, they don't make the grade. Mama may have, Papa may have, but God bless the child that's got his own, that's got his own. Money, you've got lots of friends. They all keep hanging aroun... |
basically some of it. Ed Ryder joining us in the playhouse from the studios of WHYY in Philadelphia, speaking with me and associate producer Nancy Updike. Ed Ryder's a big Billie Holiday fanatic. That was the word he used, "fanatic," when we asked him about it. So when we asked him to play a number with his horn, with ... |
you get so confused when you have two pieces of music running at the same time. Torey Malatia has supported this show from the start. We'll be back next week, same time, we hope. From WBEZ Chicago, I'm Ira Glass. |
There's what we wish for and there's what we get. For Susan Bergman, the story went like this. Her father led a double life. On the one hand, he proudly described himself as a family man, a church organist, in a denomination that was so strict the women covered their heads, wore no make-up, no dancing, no smoking, no d... |
AIDS. They had barely named the disease. The symptoms weren't familiar. And he died before his children got the chance to ask him about who he really was and talk to him about how they should reconcile who he had pretended to be all those years, with who he was. What was real of their childhood? Susan Bergman wrote a b... |
father. Well, from WBEZ in Chicago, it's This American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Back once again for another hour documenting life in these United States. Today's program in four acts. Act One, gay men. I talk to Susan Bergman about her father. Act Two, a gay man talks to me in a parked car in an undisclosed location about ... |
Susan Bergman came to our studios, loaded down with evidence. OK, now you've brought in some tapes of yourself being interviewed on talk radio shows that I've got here. So this first one, do we need to explain it at all before we play it? I think this was a caller that was, in some ways, typical of the response that I ... |
with that resentment. It really never quite goes away, even in my case, after you've come completely out and divorced and the whole bit. And the resentment lives on, that I had to do live that lie, that I had to lie to my wife, that I had to lie to my children, that I had to life to my family. And never be happy. Never... |
mean I interpreted that as we were bothering Dad, or Mom was asking too many questions. Yeah. It's not one that had occurred to me. And I would have to contest that assumption that one has to lie or one is put in a situation where lying is the only appropriate gesture or response. Let's go back to this tape. And I hope... |
father. I guess I would ask you-- I'm just stopping the tape here. I'm just going to stop the tape here, because as you're listening, you're making the gagging signal at your own reaction. Oh, I think that's so great. Oh, I think that's so wonderful. I was not in touch with the full range of the reaction until after I ... |
I just tried to be nice. And it was kind-- oh yeah. There's the thing that you wish for and there's the thing that you get. And if what you really need is a long talk with your father, the kind of talk where you get mad and argue, and maybe he gets mad, and maybe people admit mistakes, and maybe things get resolved or ... |
yourself asking a version of the question that you would most like to ask your own father. And you get an answer that is totally useless, because really it has nothing to do with you. You said, you didn't want to share your quote, "real life," maybe. But why do you feel that you were forced to lie about that? How could... |
One happy couple stands there in one of the photos in matching sweaters, raising glasses, smiling. The letter said that if her father had lived and divorced her mother, this is the kind of happiness he could have had. The letters that Susan Bergman got from the children and spouses of gay fathers, she said, seemed to b... |
had left behind. And families who are in that situation felt this shock of we are not alone. And they contacted her. You brought examples of letters? Yeah. The most poignant letter that I got, this woman says she read the book. "Our lives are so similar, Susan, that it was eerie for me to read." She talks about their b... |
him out of town, encouraged him to change his name, and lied about his mysterious disease and our parent's sudden separation. Now, they are both gone. And we are left to deal with the fraud that was our life." They had just buried their mother-- when she wrote me this letter-- who had died of AIDS because the father di... |
mother's needless death without shame. But as of now, I can't." That's the end of that letter. And I talked to this family at length, on several different occasions. They did come to Chicago. They did? Yeah. Two of the daughters came. Some of the sons were not willing to even acknowledge that the parents had died of AI... |
had. And they began calling those men's wives on the telephone, because they wanted to save lives, because they knew their mother was dying. And so they would call up these women and say, you don't know me but-- Yup. --my father has had sex with your husband. Yes. I mean can you imagine that? I mean, of course they deb... |
would say, "Oh, thank you very much for calling." And as you say that, the thing that occurs to me is it's such a complicated act, because partly it's an act of compassion for somebody. And then partly it's such an act of vengeance against somebody else, and calling-- I know but-- --out that man. I mean if you lose you... |
And people in the community come to me and say, "What should we do? We've asked him to tell her. We're thinking about telling her. We want to protect her so that her kids have one parent." And when I talk to-- And what do you tell them? I say that's their decision. They're going to have to really think about that, beca... |
to me, "Oh yeah, my main partners are married men." I said, "Well, you have to think about your own responsibility to the family then, I imagine." All these different fathers who contacted you, did any of them say, I'm sorry, I did something that hurt people and I'm sorry? Well, no. Because there's a lot of talk trying... |
letter signed, anonymously yours. He says, "At the risk of intrusion, which is not my intention, I'm compelled to write you and express some gentle viewpoints based on experiences similar to those in your book, but admittedly little real knowledge of your life." I appreciated that acknowledgement very much. "Based on y... |
denial, dreams of success and happiness for you and the others? Would it be unreasonable to consider yourself doubly-loved, by a fractured psyche fighting desperately against the nature he was given? In retrospect, are not his intents as important as his failures?" It's a beautiful letter in some ways. And in other way... |
is driving towards, like couldn't you be doubly loved, being loved by a homosexual father? No. I think I was well-loved by my father. I think my father was a split person, and that that destroyed him and it worked towards the destruction of his family. By coming to understand that your family was structured around a li... |
about her father. It's intended to answer our questions about these gay men who stay in their marriages, leading double lives. The man we found to interview for this has been married for 26 years, heads a support group, called Review, for men in similar circumstances. He was willing to be interviewed, but he didn't wan... |
interview, in his car. My name is Jerry Walters. Now let me just ask you, is it OK for us to use your name on the radio? Jerry Walters isn't my real name. It's a name that when I used to work on a hotline, they said pick out a name that you're comfortable with and use that. And so that's what I've been using. Plus, it ... |
get at angry people, doesn't know how to yell at people. Back in high school, he says, he was the kind of boy who'd go out with girls, but never make passes at them. I graduated. I would date occasionally. And I did find somebody that seemed like a very nice person, that we had a lot in common. And we went out on a dat... |
to say the least. And so I thought, well, fine. That's out of my system. I don't want any more of that. He went on to marry the girl, who he's still married to nearly three decades later. But soon after their wedding, he became increasingly obsessed with men. He found himself driving out to the forest preserves, where ... |
that I couldn't work. I would come home four or five days a week, and just be incapacitated with the pain. But then I was taking aspirins and Tylenol, and everything else. I got hooked on tranquilizers. And it's a scary thing. When this obsession first takes hold, where first you are thinking about it, and before you k... |
And your thinking gets distorted, would be an understatement. Why what happens? What do you start to think about? Maybe I shouldn't say this and maybe it's unique in my situation, but you think, gee, if she had an accident or something-- yes, I knew-- it sounds bizarre. But you're almost ready to plot to kill somebody.... |
that you would just be short with her? Because what you are describing is being so resentful. No, I didn't. I held it inside. You see, this was your wife. You can't do this. I'm one of these people that holds the door open for women and very courteous with people. So I held it inside. And you think the top of your head... |
I didn't marry part of you. We'll just figure out how to deal with it." And so from there, we just set the guidelines that would work for us. I asked her what she needed to be comfortable? She wanted, number one, to know where I would be. And that's fine. I would sooner leave a phone number underneath the telephone, th... |
sleeping. So that was never a problem. That's really the only things. And she said, "I want to be the most important person in your life." And she always has been and she always will be. He says, of course, he uses condoms. So he doesn't being home any infections or AIDS. His children and the people he works with don't... |
offense at this. There is an arrested adolescence in the gay community. There is an acceptance of lying because it was needed to survive. And honesty is something that I really put a high price on and I really value it. I suggest to him that he's the one who lies, by staying in a straight marriage, and not telling his ... |
he says, then he'll tell the truth. And he says, they'll ask when they're ready to hear the answer. If you want to know something, you will ask the question. If you don't ask the question, either you know the answer or you don't want to deal with the answer. Am I right? How old are your children? They're in their 20's.... |
saying they accept you for who you are, but they don't actually know entirely who you are, because you keep a certain part from them. I am who my children see. The only thing different about me is that I have sex with men. That is the only difference. If that makes me a different person in their eyes, what value is tha... |
is your children's concern. Later in our conversation, Jerry says that he'd like to tell his daughters the truth, but his wife doesn't want him to. She doesn't want anybody to know. He feels he has to respect her wishes. I ask him if his wife is simply ashamed that other people will know her husband looks for sex outsi... |
if I should go into that or not. Probably not. Masturbation is something that is part of what we do for sexual satisfaction. And however you do it, it's satisfying. Does she see other men? No. She says that's not what I'm about. We talked for two hours. It started to get cold in the car. Over time, as we talked, it bec... |
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