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Speaker A: How do we start this? |
Speaker B: Dude, I don't know, man. God, what a weekend. |
Speaker A: I think there's. I'm okay. How about you? |
Speaker B: Pretty good. Yeah. |
Speaker A: I mean. |
Speaker B: Okay, so we were gonna enter this conversation, and the biggest question that I have is that we're about to talk about a bunch of Twitter stuff that happened on Twitter this weekend with Twitter people, and that I have no idea how. What percentage of our YouTube and RSS fod podcast listeners are like, oh, ye... |
Speaker A: Of people probably have no idea what you're talking about. I'm just talking about Twitter. Okay, so the first topic is, David and I accidentally became main characters this weekend on Twitter. |
Speaker B: There was massive backlash dominated all of crypto Twitter. |
Speaker A: Yes, there were stories about it. It was intense, and we were in the middle of it. So we're going to talk about what happened. We're going to talk about did we deserve it? We're going to talk about, like, what do we do? And then I think there's one common theme of this episode, David, which is the next topic... |
Speaker B: Yeah, existential is a word that comes to mind. Certainly. |
Speaker A: Existential. Was this an existential crisis? All right, we're gonna get into all of it, but before we do, our friends, and let's talk about the first. And this is where we get a little self indulgent. So, uh, I don't know how your thanksgiving was, David, but mine was just fantastic. And then Black Friday ca... |
Speaker B: My thanksgiving was Friday because we did it a day late because half the family was out watching football. |
Speaker A: You were dealing with this drama. |
Speaker B: It was on thanksgiving for me. |
Speaker A: Dude, I'm sorry, Mandy. |
Speaker B: I was able to put my phone down. I was like, okay, there's a mess going on over there, but I'm. This turkey is delicious. |
Speaker A: Well, you were putting your phone down. I was fighting on Twitter, arguing with people. Let's talk about what happened. So this was one of the first tweets I saw. Another day, another attempt to drain arbitrum dao treasury. And here's a picture of me looks like playing reverse uno card. And what am I doing? ... |
Speaker B: Hey. Paid me a modest amount. You're trying to drain the arbitrum dow for $2 million. What are you doing, bro? |
Speaker A: Okay, so there is this proposal proposed by the bankless DAo for global education onboarding campaign. Here's the link to the proposal. It's a full abstract, basically a marketing education proposal put together by the bankless dao. Could you give some context in what were talking about, what this proposal i... |
Speaker B: Sure. So the bank list DAO is a collection of sub daos, each kind of specializing in different arenas, if you will. So theres translations and then every single translation. Also, there's people that will translate stuff into Spanish and people that'll translate stuff into German. So each one of those its ow... |
Speaker A: 1.8 million ARb tokens. Precisely. Which is valued at about a dollar, a dollar each or so. So like one point eight to two million dollars. |
Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. |
Speaker A: Okay. Another tweet. So, bankless literally raiding treasuries and grants, begging for money. Cause they apparently generate no revenue in the space for years doing content education interviews and market recaps, but still somehow poor launched a token that went to zero. Okay, what's the context of this twee... |
Speaker B: So this Twitter account is tagging bankless HQ, which is our mine and Ryan's bankless LLC, that our Twitter account. And so they say, hey, bankless HQ is literally raiding treasuries and begging for grants. What they are doing is they are thinking that this bankless Dao proposal to arbitrum is us, is bankles... |
Speaker A: You kind of get why they're confused. |
Speaker B: I kind of get why they're confused. Yeah. |
Speaker A: Yeah. Well, so we were on the receiving end of this attack. Like, you should change your name from bankless to shameless. There was just a lot of charges that David and I and Bankless is just a company that likes to grift people and rip people off. I've heard many similar stories from you guys, industry insi... |
Speaker B: And half man is correct, but actually. |
Speaker A: Half robot, half robot. So tweets like this were absolutely, like, just pouring in my everywhere. |
Speaker B: Deafening. It was overwhelming. It was. I didn't know that there were that many people left in crypto. It was seemingly all of them. |
Speaker A: And it was very difficult when a lot of these are anonymous accounts or a lot of these are accounts. I don't really know. Some of them aren't, though, David and some of them were jumping on this train and just being like, yeah, like, what's up? What's bankless doing over there? Why does it need this money? A... |
Speaker B: It's like. It's like a Twitter ddos of hate. It's like. It's a hate hate ddos, basically. |
Speaker A: And so, um, I tried an effort to actually clarify this, and this was a little defensive, I would say, but. But I was. I was seeking a bit more to clarify. So the reality is a few things. Bankless Dao is actually a completely separate entity from bankless media. The podcast that you're listening to, the llc t... |
Speaker B: Yeah. So in 2021, the rise of bankless from being kind of a niche media organization catering to just like, the people that were left in the bear market of 2019, bankless kind of rose in popularity, as Ethereum did, as the bull market did, as the crypto markets did in 2021. And by the time the mid of 2021 ca... |
Speaker A: And so one of the first proposals we put forward to the DAO. So again, we had no tokens at inception. One of the first proposals was a Genesis proposal. So David and I don't write smart contracts. We couldn't spin up the website. There's a group of people who helped us kind of incept this thing and launch it... |
Speaker B: Yeah. |
Speaker A: We submitted a vote to the DAO with their existing tokens to allocate to the genesis, bankless Genesis team and bankless LLC 25% of the total bank supply. And that would give these entities kind of, like, governance moving forward and some potential level of control. |
Speaker B: And that there were twelve people in the Genesis team, including you, some developers, website developers, designers, et cetera. Yes. |
Speaker A: And of that bankless LLC, I think, got 15%. You and I got, like, three or 4% individually, and the rest of the Genesis team kind of got the rest. Now, an important element of the story, bankless has not sold any tokens at all, has not participated in any votes so far. Neither have David nor myself sold any t... |
Speaker B: Yeah. The idea that. Cause we would say we're just totally unaffiliated with the Dow, it's like, well, I mean, when we say that, we're like, yeah, we're not in the discord. We're not doing the labor. Those aren't our services. Those are their services. And so there's a pretty clear line that's drawn. But the... |
Speaker A: Yes. |
Speaker B: Yeah. And so, like, what do you mean you're not affiliated with the Dow? You guys fucking made it. |
Speaker A: We just meant we did create that proposal and didn't know about it, and the financial proceeds don't go to us. But. |
Speaker B: Right. |
Speaker A: I think a lot of people in crypto Twitter was, was having none of it. And so some people were like, then why'd you even create the Dao in the first place? And that part of it, like, here's why. It's because we wanted to try this Dow experiment. We wanted to experiment with bankless as a headless brand. The i... |
Speaker B: Yeah, they're doing so much. |
Speaker A: It's one of the daoist Daos that existed. They've spun up all sorts of different products. They have different chapters. There's a bankless Brazil that we've gotten to know over there. There's a bankless Japan, translating content, creating educational content. There's a bankless Africa, all sorts of interna... |
Speaker B: Yeah. And I think this is where a lot of the misunderstanding comes from. It's like, most people, when they think of daos, like Maker Dao or the Aave Dao, there's, like, one centralized Dao where there's, like, a central command and list of people. And that's just, like, not how, like, the bankless Dao works... |
Speaker A: Yes. And so I think a lot of people didn't understand that. So there was, there's a lot of dunking. But the truth is, like, I'm proud of what the Dow has done, just in general, not this specific proposal. And again, I can't speak to this specific proposal, but keep in mind the proposal, like, it wasn't a rat... |
Speaker B: Trade off. |
Speaker A: It's a trade offer. Do you want to buy these services? Yes. No, I mean, arbitram governance is going to review this on its own merits in the ROI and make a decision like they would with any other vendor. So it's not like a raid. I don't understand the outrage specifically targeted towards this proposal, but ... |
Speaker B: And separately from all of this, there seems to be, like, these semi regular seasons in which it's just, like, bankless pile on seasons. It's just like, we do something that people take offense to that make people feel aggrieved by, and then that, like, is like lighting a match. That lights a bunch of, like,... |
Speaker A: This is the worst, though. |
Speaker B: This was the worst and the loudest by far. |
Speaker A: Honestly, I don't know how this affects you because, again, you were trying to have Thanksgiving, but, like, it started for me Friday and then, and then continued into Saturday. And this was like 48 hours of attack. And, like, it, it hits me. I'm like, am I, like, am I, am I a grifter? Well. |
Speaker B: Cause, like, you and I are like, we try to be truth seekers. And when, like, 100 accounts are tweeting at us every hour saying, you guys are grifters, I'm like, wait, wait, am I? |
Speaker A: Yeah. |
Speaker B: And then I have to, like, think about it. Like, no, fuck you, I'm fine. |
Speaker A: Well, that's what you think. It takes me a while to come to that conclusion, right? So, I mean, even people in the Ethereum community, so some accounts were coming out defending us. Like, DC investor was like, hey, bankless has helped onboard thousands of people. And Foo Bazler, who's in the Ethereum communi... |
Speaker B: What does he mean? |
Speaker A: What does he mean? |
Speaker B: I don't know what he means. |
Speaker A: Again, this is what Twitter makes you think. You're staring at the funhouse mirror and then it reflects back at you and you're like, do I really look like that? Is that me? And so you tweeted out some questions like this, but so did I? Is the truth, is the day bankless is bad for Ethereum is the day I leave.... |
Speaker B: If, yeah, we're here to help Ethereum. |
Speaker A: And we're here to help people in crypto. I mean, I don't want. If I'm a grifter, I've turned into a grifter without knowing it, right? Like, what am I doing something wrong here? And so I asked the question, is bankless net bad for Ethereum? And this is when more support started. |
Speaker B: The tide started to turn a little bit. Yeah. |
Speaker A: So Anthony Cisano is sort, of course bankless isn't a massive good net, good for Ethereum and all of crypto. You've done, done a lot more than 99% of people. Benjamin Cohen, net positive by far. Eric Voorhees. This is the one I really cared about hearing about Anthony as well. Y'all are great. Stop worrying ... |
Speaker B: Yeah, it's not my proposal. |
Speaker A: It's not my proposal. Like, I didn't do it. But that's not an acceptable answer. |
Speaker B: Yeah. |
Speaker A: So I know we have to not listen to all of these critics, but I'm telling you, when you're in the thick of it, it is absolutely overwhelming. |
Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. There's, like, the response, like, came out, like, oh, yeah, bankless is, like, a net good for ethereum. This might be me just being really personal about this, but the whole net good thing, I have a problem with. And people have told me that I need to not take this too seriously, and I still hav... |
Speaker A: Well, there's a lot of requests from us to kind of list the things that were bad about us. And, like, some of them are just bad faith critiques. Like, you have ads, you have advertisement, you have. Your. |
Speaker B: Your titles are clicky. Clickbaity. |
Speaker A: Yes. You have YouTube thumbnails that. That we don't like. And, like, some. A lot of that is, you know, easily dismissed, but, oh, some of it kind of hits closer to home. Anyway, I didn't find a lot of good things. |
Speaker B: Some of the people who say things. Okay. Oh, yeah. Like, there's a history of bad behavior, and I'm like, I like the specifics. Like, did you get any, like, specifics? |
Speaker A: I was like, okay, so, like, an example mark from Aave, who I think is fantastic. He, he's been an ave from the very beginning, kind of a defi Zelda. He's a real, yeah, bankless is 90% good educational conference content, 10% grift. And I was just like, mark, what's the 10%? |
Speaker B: Because as soon as I discover what that 10% is, I'm pruning it for my life. Thank you. |
Speaker A: And his reply was, oh, I didn't mean grift. I just meant like, you guys run a profitable business. |
Speaker B: Commercial profit maxi, profit max. 90% good content, 10% profit maxi. I'm like, oh, wait, we have a media business. |
Speaker A: We have 20 people that work at bankless hq and help us produce this podcast, help us generate the newsletter, all the analysts reports that we use, and all the tools that we do. Okay, so all of that happened, right? I guess. What's the conclusion on this? What's the end of the story? Did we receive any signa... |
Speaker B: And it took a while to get here to write this tweet. Like, a couple people had to dm me and be like, yo, calm down. And like, people. People were just like. And when it comes from people that you trust and know, like, it hits different. And so you just need the trusted advisors in this space. We like, walk y... |
Speaker A: Branding isn't clear. |
Speaker B: The branding's not clear. Wait, so Ryan and David are just asking for arbitrum tokens via the Dao as a sly, grifty little mechanism of getting more arbitrum tokens? That's a conclusion that people came to. Okay, I understand branding's not clear. We have tokens, but we don't vote in governance. So we are aff... |
Speaker A: That's the, that's the signal through all of the mop attacks. It's just two things. The branding between bankless and the media company that we run and bankless Dow is unclear right now. So we need to clear which is. |
Speaker B: The experiment, which what is the experiment that was. |
Speaker A: But we've seen ways it can, uh, lead to bad outcomes, basically. And so one of the steps that we're going to do is submit a governance proposal to the bankless DAO to kind of clarify the branding between bankless, the media company and what we do and bankless Dao itself. So that is a work in progress. The ot... |
Speaker B: You our beneficiaries of the DAO. |
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Our profit motivated, set this up because, like, they want to be extractive from the community. No, that was not the intent. From the get go and to quash. Any doubts. It's just simpler just to basically burn the bank tokens. So that's what we're doing, our personal tokens and bankless HQ. And I t... |
Speaker B: And I would also say, going back to what I was said, there's actually no bankless dao. There's actually just the conglomerate of subdaos, that when you form them together, then they are like, hey, guys, I think we are bankless Dao. That's how I articulate what bankless Dao is. And the real Dao, for me, the w... |
Speaker A: Anyone can go bankless. This is the bankless movement. I mean, anybody can go bankless. It's not just a podcast, not just a newsletter. This was the conclusion, I think, for me, toast tweeted this. In all seriousness, if bankless are the current main characters, then we're doing okay. So, David, I guess if w... |
Speaker B: Yeah. If we're the worst people, these bad villains, maybe. |
Speaker A: Yeah, at least we got that. Yeah. Okay, so that existential crisis, David, leaves maybe to a broader existential crisis is like, what are we doing here in crypto? And this was one interesting reaction and outcome from this whole series of events that is much broader than, I think, bankless, and gets to the q... |
Speaker B: Like, a overwhelming positive, overwhelmingly positive. |
Speaker A: Yeah. The tweet continues. Don't kid yourselves. We are in this land of degenerate capitalism only to make money, and then name some developers that are kind of defi developers. Andrew Cronier and someone else. They contributed so much to this space and still get shit on. Token price going up equals contribu... |
Speaker B: So what do you think a valueless governance token is right? |
Speaker A: At the end of the day, though, that's the only two things that matter on crypto Twitter. Yes. And I think this. Maybe this is crypto Twitter culture versus all of crypto culture. We could unpack that. But this general idea of, like, we're here for the money, right? I responded to this. I know this isn't true... |
Speaker B: Right. If you. If you are here for the money, the the money. The fact that crypto is about money is like, this very, like, unfortunate thing that's very necessary, because that's what we're here to do. There are people who are unfortunate. Well, because, because, like, you are, you can come to crypto for the... |
Speaker A: It does, but why can't. I don't understand why it has to be binary. Why can't you come for both? Why can't you come for, like, long term wealth creation? |
Speaker B: I'm here for the creation, the money, tech, right? It's like, yeah, like the, the values. |
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